Storm over Stirling - not really a tourney report, more a rant!

[Dave]

I played a game with the Storm over Stirling rulespack last night, note I say rulespack not comp, as whilst it has restrictions they don't actually restrict anything that needs it.  For example I can't take 2 eagles in my WE force(because they're rare) but my HE opponent was allowed 3 characters with 2+ rerollable armour saves and 4+ ward saves...  Yeah, that's nice and balanced.  Also the game was 2800 pts and round times are listed as 2 1/4 hours long.  We played as fast as possible, only 1 rules query, no interruptions, fast tracked everything we could.... And achieved 4 turns.

HE vs WE is never a great matchup anyway and when the restrictions don't touch him (other than max unit size being 400pts restricitng how many white lions are in a single unit) and result in my losing the only diverter options that really allow me to deal with those units, all my skirmishy stuff was in trouble because his characters could all go in and smash a unit and I'd be fleeing due to the res difference.  I can't wound him, due to silly reroll saves and wards. Plus all 4 characters were mounted, 2 eagles, 2 horsies and magic weapons to remove my ward saves with him getting rerolls to hit.

Basically they've turned warhammer back into herohammer, my what fun... Oh wait no, I stopped playing for 8 years because of that.

One of the few occassions where I will not go to an event I would otherwise have attended due to the style of game it's playing and that's despite the fact it's relatively local.

Anyways rant over, I feel mildly better after that.

I then went on to play a beastman army with pretty much my normal WE list and I smashed it, but he killed a load of my stuff too.  It was great fun for both of us, though he did realise his army was a little limited because it relied on 2 massive units and I killed one with 2 units of treekin and a treeman simultaneously charging in it's front!  That does an awful lot of damage!

[fatolaf]

2800 pts in 2:15 hours......

There is a lot of very strange comp going on at the moment..

Nothing quite annoys me as a blanket double rare, triple special comp, becuase 2 eagles are really as bad as 2 steamtanks...

Just avoid any stoopid comp torunies form noe on, till TO's arebrave enought to start tackling the biggets problems in 8th, ie: Not the BRB (except for a magic tweak), the actual army books themselves..

Just check out the amount of third / half full tournies on TWF at the moment, all have one thing in common, no comp or a totally skewed attempt at it, people are getting very sick of no (crap) comp events very quickly, unless they own the 4 armies that will do well (turning into 7th Ed staleness already, less than a year in)

[khaosgoblin]

Interesting points on comp & size of games, obviously whoever decided 2 1/4 hrs for 2,800 simply does not play the game. the best comp attempt so far has been the UL guys at Tempest although I am still not happy with win/lose/draw systems.

Its very visable that the "out of the box" events are just not selling, I cannot see the the "Crucible" events going ahead as they have only sold 15 tickets out of 300 & they are not even attempting to promote it. TOS is apparently going to make some changes but at best they will end up as a standard out of the box win/lose/draw event & that will not get me attending.

As Ol says the TOs at the major events need to get to grips with the problems in army books as well as simple comp from the main book.
I have a ticket for the Midlands Open but if they do not make at least some changes I probably wont bother.

Thats my rant added.

Mark

[noahtonkin]

It's gonna be tricky to get a comp pack that everyone agrees on, was it ever really done in 7th?

Completely agree that the ones Ive seen are just useless,
In fact its why i've put the WEs away recently.
Isn't the no double rare etc in the rule book though?

Can we start a list of what we think decent comp restrictions should be?
Am kind of wonderig if the player marked comp might see a rise in popularity.
I damn well would hit any bugger who takes a hoarde of White Lions, world dragon and massively tooled up characters!

[fatolaf]

I cannot see the the "Crucible" events going ahead as they have only sold 15 tickets out of 300 & they are not even attempting to promote it.

Never thought that was going to work, plus the fact their 3 events are all on at the same time as at least 1 if not 2 big tournies as well..
Same problems have affected the Club Challenge, The Midlands Open and many others...

Too many on at the same time, all with none or little comp, therefore only attracting the same players who can't all go to all of them at the same time...

I have a ticket for the Midlands Open but if they do not make at least some changes I probably wont bother.

I have pleaded with Luke to increase the comp, as I would love to support him...

So far It's only Tempest who are doing BIG comped events, but again they love to put their events on at the same time as others , and it's hugely expensive for us Southerners to get to thanks to Virgin trains..

[Dave]

double rares is ok in the rulebook, it's greater than double that's banned.

mark, you're not wrong about crucible, as one of the 3 or so people who signed up to the Edinburgh event I'm suspecting to hear bad news at some point.  Shame as it took the weekend we were going to run the now announced Gathering of the Clans event, which has hedged it's bets by going multi system and convention style rather than a straight tournament to protect against any lack of interest in 1 system.

I should point out I'm slightly overstating the restrictions on double rares/triple specials.  You can take them if you really want, only it's a 5 Battle Points penalty.

The filthiest list I've seen written up (which probably isn't going but just to show how to break the comp) is a double slann list both with rumination, with no cap of 12 dice on the magic phase and the slaan's ability to power through those spells whist shutting down the opposition it would be disgusting. One on death so he can charge back up the pool too.

Oh and that's not touched by the comp.  Because he was filthing it up he has also put double 2 unit salamanders in because he thinks it will overcome a 5bps penalty!

[Meals]

As someone in the situation of having played in just about every type of comp system I've heard of, here are my thoughts.

Unfortunately player comp does not work, Noah. Period. Everyone marks with a different idea of what they want to see in lists regardless of what the rules say. Some people mark on army theme,  some mark on "well he just beat me into the ground, so it must be a 1/5 list" even though they just got schooled by a better player with a soft as list, some just give a good mark because their opponent talked them into it, some just give out 5s because they can't be bothered trying to judge the list they're playing, and finally some actually follow the rules and mark lists on actual power.

Hard caps are by far and away the simplest and easiest way to do it from my experience. The TO chooses what he does and doesn't want to see in army lists. I know there will always be debates about what is reasonable and what isn't but at least everyone knows what the deal is and can come or go as they please. TOs just need to take a bit more specific approach about it rather than hoping that one rule fits all will achieve anything.

Funnily enough, back in New Zealand, there's a massive move to drop comp in 40k altogether, just to avoid the endless debates about what's broken and what isn't, you knew the deal going in and if you didn't build a good enough list, thats your problem... I think it's good, especially since most of the new books are pretty equal in power (Guard excepted of course ) Not sure this works in fantasy until all the army books have been released with 8th in mind but maybe one day...

But as long as I have the option of what events I can play at I'm happy. And variety is always good....

[fatolaf]

It's gonna be tricky to get a comp pack that everyone agrees on

Does not matter, if they dont like it , they dont come. My point is, no one is even attempting at the moment (except Me & the UL guys) and then they wonder why their evenst dont sell out...

was it ever really done in 7th?

Whilst DE basically dominated due to basically Harpy abuse and far too much shooting, There were some very good comps out in the last few years, involving race specific and timmy...

And more importantly there was not this plefora of events all on the same wknds....

Isn't the no double rare etc in the rule book though?

No more than 2 rare in the book, but this blanket 'all race' no double rare is baloney..

2 Giants vs 12 Flamers  hmmm.....

Can we start a list of what we think decent comp restrictions should be?

Waargh 7 will take what I learnt form Waargh 5 comp and then we will all open it upto debate....

Am kind of wonderig if the player marked comp might see a rise in popularity.

IMO a nightmare idea, let the Ozzies keep it

I damn well would hit any bugger who takes a hoarde of White Lions, world dragon and massively tooled up characters!

Yes as a WE player you would, But then as a LM player with my 2-3 sallies, burning the crap out of that 1000 point unit (down the flanks) I would not mind it, hence the problem with player marked comp...

[fatolaf]

Hard caps are by far and away the simplest and easiest way to do it from my experience. The TO chooses what he does and doesn't want to see in army lists. I know there will always be debates about what is reasonable and what isn't but at least everyone knows what the deal is and can come or go as they please. TOs just need to take a bit more specific approach about it rather than hoping that one rule fits all will achieve anything.

Exactly....

[Dave]

So far It's only Tempest who are doing BIG comped events, but again they love to put their events on at the same time as others , and it's hugely expensive for us Southerners to get to thanks to Virgin trains..

Define hugely expensive?  For tempest most of our lot are avoiding trains because it's touch and go whether you can catch the last one back up the road if there are any delays.  Instead we're driving down and it's working out at about £50 a head.  Taking the train to most events cost me £50 - £70 and there are seldom cheap options and often difficulties in getting back up to Ed on a Sunday night.