The attraction of Tournaments (any system)

[Idiotproof Dalek]

As this debate appears to have moved on from Warhammer tournaments particularly, I will reiterate a few final things.

I don't see tournaments as inherently bad. The point I was making was that GW games end up getting particularly distorted by this mindset and in my opinion are unsuitable to being treated in the same way as MTG et all (I have no experience of these games, but visits to Dark Sphere and the rows of MTG players lined up like in a Bingo hall seem to indicate that game is made specifically to play competitively)
I agree with the guys who said that the painting and modelling approach to WH means it ISN'T just another game like MTG etc and this backs up my point about tournament WH being but a tiny fraction of the game's potential.

So I have a big problem with Guillaume's approach to treating them all with the same mindset. But of course, each to his own, as long as yours doesn't encroach on mine....

I take on board the points others have made about the different elements they enjoy with tournaments, and to be honest, it makes me want to get involved, for the social aspect and the fun that can appear to be had. Unfortunately my bad experiences temper this - I attempted to participate in a 3 game mini tournament run by Finchley Titans when I lived oop North, expecting it to consist of us local club players having a laugh, when in fact it attracted WAAC players who I'd never seen before at the club who brought their filth lists. After two games that were unutterably tedious (i.e my army did nothing but get Dwellered and Dreaded 13th off in the first turn (I conceded in the 2nd and went for a drink) I played a like minded Chaos Dwarf and we had a close fought draw. I guess a larger pool might have ensured a better balance of players!

Anyway great discussion fellas!

[fatolaf]

The Titans club that was set up by Dave Simpson?

We went to a few of those events in the early days, were never that great, but had some ace parties afterwards and some Missions to get home afterwards...

[Idiotproof Dalek]

Yeah - there weren't a helluva lot of fantasy players towards the end or i'd have gone more! Once Chef went back to Germany....

[fatolaf]

Small events often get raided by twats with net lists who wants to smash some noobs, had a few at some of our early waarghs and 40k events, all were told in no uncertain terms not to come back....

[Jal]

This is a really interesting topic - it's nice to see opinions from those that do attend, do not attend and those that used to attend tournaments.

Most of the poeple that know me from OG will know that I am at heart, a tournament player.

I guess it's a personality trait regardless of system - eg when playing computer games, I'll always veer towards PvP games due to the competitive nature. Not all games are balanced - and this is ture of the WHFB scene.

What the Warhammer scene has in spades is the additional benefit of the social scene. From tournaments with the OG boys (that SCGT with Steve's terrain rant was epic) and watching Ol drunk fight Tom Hale in the garden at the Red Lion to heading to Cardiff with the Angel lot and getting smashed every night, the WHFB social scene has never been more alive.

The actual tournaments themselves are great. For the most part they're very well run, and even on the top tables you rarely play a complete tool (in 50ish tournaments over the last 3 years, nomally on the top tables, I've had 6 poor games - and 3 of them were at Waaghs). The thing about it is - poeple will often take the strongest list they can and if you bring a knife to a gun fight, you will find yourself on the bottom tables.

That being said, there are many regulars who bring the army they want to bring regardless of comp. Game 1 they might play something much harder than their list and get smashed. from game 2 onwards, due to the nature of the Swiss system, the likelyhood is that you'll be matched against something similar to your own.

While I am pro tournament scene, I can see why people would be put off. That being said, far too many people have pre-concentions or warped views of what so called 'top table behaviour' is like that colours their view of how tournaments are. There are bad eggs on the scene, but for the most part, it's self regulating. Most of the worst offenders (behaviour/cheating etc) are banned or it was made clear to them they would have to change their ways or face ostracism.

[fatolaf]

To be fair Amit, the Indie tournie scene was very slow in banning players, it only really happened finally in the last year of me attending them, before that people were still allowed to play even with being caught with loaded dice on the top table on the last game in the biggest event of the year (boy that one was covered up), known cheats were still allowed to turn up and ruin peoples wknds (I played all of them) all because they did not want the growing scene to be tainted (alot of us argued that this in fact tainted it further)..They finally got their act together just as the scene started declining, however that no nonsense attitude to cheats and bad sports has now filtered into most other systems and their events (sadly except for MTG, where is seems being a C*nt is par for the course).

I would like to point out one massive correction in Amit's statement, no one ever mentioned top table bad behaviour, in the most the worst behaved players would be of average ability and would often be found ruining players games in the mid tables, because even when the game was up event wise, they still had to win win win win due to the abhorrent being that was the rankings and the Mythical chalice that was the WFB ETC...
It was a huge decisive factor in me stopping attending events as the attitudes of players (Most to be said new to the game tp the scene) got worse and worse during that period. This and then the fact the game was becoming a farce rules and balance wise, led to me dropping out with many many other seasoned pro's (many of whom have now become Jedi's and can be seen screaming pew pew pew at each other as they have taken up the X-Wing Hobby and Scene).

I am led to believe that the WFB scene is better now, despite the actual game being at probably its worst ever state, rumours abound that the game will cease to be as we know it next year and will be replaced with a skirmish game as the company behind it concentrate on the game that make up 95% of their sales, 40K..

I reckon then that would be the real interesting time in the scene as the players take over with rules, balance etc and run it as a fan system a la Blood bowl, but either way the tournie scene will on the whole be a fun place so long as it keeps it self regulation as with many other systems now...

Me personally, i will probably never do a 1v1 tournament again, having lost all my tolerance towards people who have to win to have fun, had too many bad experiences amongst the many fun ones (drunken Woc Smash vs Amit at Brighton was a highlight).
For me now it would be multiplayer, team based or campaign events, where the point above all else is fun and not Win...

[Pip]

rumours abound that the game will cease to be as we know it next year and will be replaced with a skirmish game

Not wanting to go too far off topic, but I've heard that one a few times and it does seem rather silly. You can imagine the GW board meeting.

"OK guys, WFB is a turkey. We're going to do a big End Times fanfare to wrap up this edition and then move over to a skirmish game."
"Yeah! 40K is popular and kind of a skirmish game. Simpler rules, smaller armies, lower cost of entry. Like it. So, how much should the first model we release for this End Times malarkey cost?"
"ONE THOUSAND POINTS."
"but"
"ONE. THOUSAND. POINTS."

Mentally I've filed the "skirmish game" rumour along with all the other rumours that have turned out to be just something a randomer made up for attention and got repeated by the echo chamber of rumour blogs. Plastic Slayers anyone?

[fatolaf]

The rumour came from Harry and Hastings on Warseer, who have been right about everything they have leaked so far..
End times is a last mad dash to squeeze some sales out before their year end (why do you think the books are so ltd in number) and then it makes perfect sense for them to concentrate their focus on the game that worldwide is their main seller by 95%..

Time will tell Pip....

[fatolaf]

Plastic Slayers anyone?

Which were released by Avatars of War and were so good and so popular that it makes perfect sense for GW not to male their own especially when the unit is niche at best

[Pip]

I've read the original post from Harry and people are massively over-interpreting it (as usual). When it comes to all the big doomsday scenarios (skirmish game, dropping WFB for 100% 40K, etc), all he says was "I heard it was discussed". And in the latter case he also says "and clearly they decided to try something else".

People are taking a tiny snippet of second-hand information and blowing it out of proportion. But like you say, time will tell. Considering how well the End Times appears to be doing, I personally don't feel too frightened for the future of my square-based little (lizard)men.