Arguing with a Tournament Organiser

[Undead Dan]

Yesterday was Regarding Retribution, it was a real shame that none of you guys could make it, but I understand why you didn't. Anyway, just thought I'd get you guys' perspective on an incident that happened midway through the tournament, and how you would deal with it, and if you've ever had anything like this happen in the past... (also we have TOs themselves here, their perspective and experience from the other side is also important!)

So, the situation was, a nice tight game of basic, bogstandard warhammer with no comp. As I was facing a warmachine-heavy list, after one unit had been all-but-destroyed, I fled with it to save its points, and at the end of the game it was still on the table. So, no VPS scored for that unit then. A smart move, by all accounts, but one taking advantage of clear 8th edition rules.

So, we totted up the scores as normal, and it was a straight 10-10, shook hands, filled in the results card, signed it, and I handed it in. A few minutes later my opponent came up, and told me that fleeing units counted as dead, and so we should change the scoresheet. I told him that's not right, but he'd asked the organisers, and it was in the rules pack, that they count as dead. I didn't have the pack to hand, so we went up there and tried to figure it out. The two guys at the computer said that fleeing units are dead and give up full VPs. I asked them where it said this, and showed them the rulespack that sid that VPs are as per the main rulebook, which means you only get points if a unit is dead or has fled off the table. They disagreed again, and justified it as saying they'd made this ruling the previous year, so it applies this year as well. I was obviously aghast at this and explained that it's not really fair to expect someone to remember a ruling from the previous year, and they said that I should have asked if I wasn't sure and I shouldn't have fled with the unit (Which begs the questions of, "what if you weren't here last year?" and "what about when it's not your choice if a unit flees?", which I didn't think of at the time).

As it was the organiser's decision, I told them I would play it their way, as it's their tournament, but it was still out of order for them to change a rule in the rulebook without telling anyone, and to apply it to games that have already been finished and played out using the "wrong" ruling, with the result handed in. And that this would probably put me off coming back next year. They said they were sorry I didn't like it, but that's just how it was. So I told them to change the VPs for the game (My opponent chipped in, "Oh and an extra hundred points for the BSB", which didn't help, as you don't get those bonus points if he didn't die in combat and I then had to explain that rule as well- noting that "unless the organisers want to change that rule as well", which probably didn't help), and left shaking my head and went to finished re-setting up my army.

A few minutes later as I was sat chatting with a neighbouring gamer, one of the other organisers came over and started querying me about the game, and he got the rulebook out, showed me the section on "Dead or Fled", and me and the guy I was with both thought he was trying to explain why they were right to make that ruling... but as it turned out, he was explaining to me that fleeing units didn't count as dead! I was relieved to be talking with the one guy running the tournament that actually knows the rules. Turns out he was the actual rules judge, so why didn't they ask him in the first place anyway?! So we sorted out the proper result, and it went back to being the draw that it was. Thank goodness.

But obviously, being put in the situation where a judge is making a wrong ruling is just horrible. Even moreso when it decides a game. Even moreso when it is afer that game has finished. Even moreso when the judges only play 40K. Even moreso when you then blame the player for getting the rule wrong. I didn't speak to my previous opponent that game that day (just didn't see him again), so I didn't get to point out the result had been re-corrected, and I don't think he was angling for a cheap win, just that he asked an honest question of the organisers and they gave a dumb answer, and ran with it.

But anyway, any thoughts? How would you deal with incompetent TOs doing a bit of hobby-wrecking?

[maelzch]

If it's a genuine rules dispute then then ref I'd right.

If the referee is contradicting a quite clear 8th edition rule, and it isn't in the rules pack, it's tricky, how much you can argue

[fatolaf]

But anyway, any thoughts? How would you deal with incompetent TOs doing a bit of hobby-wrecking?

Sounds like the whole event was a bit of a farce, not arranging a stand in player despite having an odd number of players...

Had an issue like this at the last Warlords event that Ant Spiers ran. Took me to get other players to show him the rules regarding Salamanders after my opponent argues the toss about the rules, was ruled against despite me showing them both the 'actual' FAQ......

Its always a hard thing to deal with, but with a rulespack, there should not be any arguement like your example....

[Crompton]

I agree with Lee on his first point. If you ask a referee a genuine question and they make a decision. You abide by it.

If you are going against a specific rule in the rule book or army books it needs to be in the rules pack or made as an announcement at the beginning of the tournament. Some random guy who claims they did the same last year, to me is not a guy's word I go on. I'd prob tell them that half their results are probably wrong and they make a mockery of the Organiser part of the term Tournament Organiser. Then again I'd prob be inebriated or very hungover unless it was the first game of a tournament, heh.

[Cyberactivity]

I would of asked them to show me in the pack or the BRB which states that fleeing counts as dead.

If they said that it was ruled that last year I would have said that although that might be the case they didn't state that in the pack and that as a core rule change, its quite important to know these kind of things prior to the game.

If they said that you should have checked before fleeing I would of said that I did check the rulespack, and it said "as per BRB" which means that they don't count as dead.

Would of made my feelings perfectly clear that the ruling goes against the rulespack, and the BRB and that the result of the game should stand.

[Undead Dan]

Yep, pretty much exactly what I said

Still, at least they corrected the mistake. Similar thing happened to Bryan Carmichael's son at the GT the other week I recall, and he had to live with it.

[The Trampoline]

Least they realised the error for you Dan, they messed me about completely.

On my way problem with the trains so going to be late. I rang in advance to say I would be late, and when I would arrive (35 minutes into first game). They said that as long as I arrived at that time I would have a game, otherwise it would be too late and forfeit.

Evidently this was a lie as when I arrived, no opponent. They had not bothered to organise a spare player, they said someone was coming and to wait, but by the time they did they said he had only half an army and he would just play the bottom table games 2 and 3. It would be unfair of me to play him and get an advantage over the other players. What about unfairness to me that I spent £15 on a ticket (plus train fare) and would not be getting 1 out of only 3 games. then they said that due to me being late (and inciting thsi was my fault) I would get zero points for the first round. They said it would be unfair on the other players that I would get such as advantage. They posted on TWF that it was not a rankings competition so it would be more laid back, yet they make a decision like this.

Despite their messing up with not having a spare player (although they had 4/5 people milling about doing admin) they acted like it was my fault, effectively f*ck you attitude.

Really put a dampener on the day for me, had two enjoyable games afterwards but only mediocre results 12-8 and 13-7 wins, so ranked pretty poorly in the end. After going for 7 years I've seen this competition go from huge lively great atmosphere dwindle down to rubbish with less than 30 players and no atmosphere. I had decided that I would do this again, but then they said at the prize giving the competition would most likely move to triple helix centre in Westbury which was the final nail in the coffin. Call me a troll but when they advertise it for 2012 I will post to warn people away from it.

[Cyberactivity]

Its a shame that its gone down hill.

It was the first tourney that I attended. I did fairly well that year and the following year too at the event. Had a great time and was sad that I couldn't attend last year. 

Real shame that it doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to the tourney it use to be.

Hopefully a tourney will come in with a very similar setup that will replace it on the scene. Fingers crossed.

[Raffazza]

On the wider "rules judges getting rules wrong" thing, it is a real pain in the something or other.

Not quite sure what there is to be done, I know from experience it is a real pain.

[Dave]

If it's a rules decision at a table I just accept it, if I know the book is right I should have consulted it before calling them over, so could clearly evidence why they are wrong if I disagree where it's my opponents request.

If it's something like that which is away from the table and not in the pack I think you would be well within your rights to question it and request the actual rules judge made the call rather than the data entry guy.

Generally I don't care enough about my scores and placing to argue that sort of thing.