Sheffield Slaughter 2012 - 28/29th Jan

[Dave]

I guess the question is: What do you expect from your opponent during a game of Warhammer?

All I personally ask is that he doesn't cheat, and doesn't bitch and moan too much/get angry during game. Anything else is fine by me.

What about so drunk they barely know what they're doing?  If so did you see my game 6 at the etc last year, it was an epic fail on my part, not my finest piece of tactical gaming for sure!

Personally I expect a bit of interaction from my opponent.  Over the last 2-3 years gaming I've had 2 games which I'd classify as 'bad' experiences.
1. Opponent had his girlfriend at the table, sulked when he rolled a 1 to wound with a warmachine against me and still complianed about it 4 turns later as he was smashing me off the table.  I had to put up with him splitting his attention between his girlfriend and the table with the occassional gloating about his army rolling over the top of me in a watchtower game where he started with 20 khorne warriors in the watchtower and I was playing WE.  Best chat I had during the game was when he went to the bar and I got to briefly bring her out of her bored trance at the edge of the board.

2. The slowest opponent I've ever faced.  Basically took ages to set up, then I got lucky to get T1 and got a comet off.  This seemed to throw him into a total tailspin and he then took another 45 mins to do his T1.  So 1.5hrs into the round we'd done 1 turn and he was saying that the game was over because of my 2 lucky things in T1.  As I tried to play quick later was picking me up on not declaring the direction of salamander shots when I'd clearly measured my aim point during the move phase in positioning them.  The chat between us during the game was fine but I hate not getting 6 turns in and his style of play meant it was never going to happen as he didn't push the pace after the slow start.

[fatolaf]

Not to "defend the indefensible" (as it sounds like your game vs gary was beyond terrible), but there is a long list of people I could point to who have enjoyed playing him before (maybe he was being a waac'er at this event though).

There were at least 2 more than me at Sheffield and a few I met over the wknd did not have good things to say.

Think with you and Wayne he may have gone hyper-borg as you are both such big names in the hobby.

But we are actually 2 of the least competitive players out there, so WTF is his idea acting like that with players who play for fun???

Have a think about that one and defend his actions then, and maybe even stop this Borg business, it will only encourage him by naming it, hence making it sound fun and not the disgraceful behaviour that it is..

I guess the question is: What do you expect from your opponent during a game of Warhammer?

Not cheat, not bitch,not slow play, not constantly try to question the rules, not try to break rules to their own advantage, ROLL THE DICE properly (this is something Gary did not do vs me, despite me telling him) and to at all times try to make sure both players are having fun whatever table you are on, what round it is etc..
This is a fun hobby even at tournament levels, there is no money involved, this is not a job, this is a social hobby...
It makes me so livid when I see people taking this so seriosuly and ruining peoples events, that we all pay good money for to have FUN!

[Meals]

What about so drunk they barely know what they're doing?  If so did you see my game 6 at the etc last year, it was an epic fail on my part, not my finest piece of tactical gaming for sure!

Personally I expect a bit of interaction from my opponent.  Over the last 2-3 years gaming I've had 2 games which I'd classify as 'bad' experiences.
1. Opponent had his girlfriend at the table, sulked when he rolled a 1 to wound with a warmachine against me and still complianed about it 4 turns later as he was smashing me off the table.  I had to put up with him splitting his attention between his girlfriend and the table with the occassional gloating about his army rolling over the top of me in a watchtower game where he started with 20 khorne warriors in the watchtower and I was playing WE.  Best chat I had during the game was when he went to the bar and I got to briefly bring her out of her bored trance at the edge of the board.

2. The slowest opponent I've ever faced.  Basically took ages to set up, then I got lucky to get T1 and got a comet off.  This seemed to throw him into a total tailspin and he then took another 45 mins to do his T1.  So 1.5hrs into the round we'd done 1 turn and he was saying that the game was over because of my 2 lucky things in T1.  As I tried to play quick later was picking me up on not declaring the direction of salamander shots when I'd clearly measured my aim point during the move phase in positioning them.  The chat between us during the game was fine but I hate not getting 6 turns in and his style of play meant it was never going to happen as he didn't push the pace after the slow start.

Given that I'm usually the drunkest one at the table I can't say I've had the expererience of playing against it, Dave. 

You are right though, getting 6 turns in is very important, and should be on the list. Don't usually complain about the GF thing though, never seen it as an issue

[Raffazza]

Ol, not trying to defend him in your game (or Marcus') - its clear that you both had terrible games, and as I said, he is gutted about it.
All I am saying is that most of the time he is fine - most of his opponents (and people he has talked to at events) have had games ranging from fun to fine. As has been said, he is not the most vibrant person at a table, and gets "the face" on perhaps too easily.


On a wider point, its probably not actually a bad thing if people who don't behave in the accepted fashion were named and shamed - (I completely agree that more and more people take things too seriously) could help with the situation in the future. Its just if we are doing that there are a lot of people who should be named and shamed (some of them, as I have said, who are "names" on the scene). Is the best way to do that publicly or quietly? No idea - have to say been lucky to have had enough good games I tend to blank out the bad ones- I also don't take any of this goodness that seriously.


On the cheating thing - thats totally unacceptable. Interesting point is how many of the top players get basic things completely wrong (either because they don't know the rules or because they "forget" in the head of the moment).

[fatolaf]

(I completely agree that more and more people take things too seriously) could help with the situation in the future. Its just if we are doing that there are a lot of people who should be named and shamed (some of them, as I have said, who are "names" on the scene).

I always found it disgusting that Matt Howley was never punished for blatantly cheating for 2 years.
The fact that he could be at SCGT this year after having cheated 11 opponets for the previous 2 is staggering...

[Undead Dan]

I do see both points of view, but if the "naming and shaming" is going to mean that Gary changes his way, when the alternative is to bitch behind his back without him knowing a thing about it, then I think this might be the more painful method, but it's the better method. Kinda like the difference between pulling off a plaster quickly... or just letting an opening pustule fester. (Sorry, I've been doing some work on my Nurgle WoC)

On the other side of the coin, I do cringe when I play people who have their own podcasts for how they might report me. One "name" managed to confuse me with another player and completely misreport the game, and then when we replayed he bitched about me being a bit of a rules lawyer (because I wanted to make sure that a failed terror test did in fact destroy a third of my army turn 2 rather than just take them off the table 1 second after failing the test, and when I managed to flank charge and destroy one of his cheap blocks because he didn't realise I could make the charge he got stroppy. Sorry that it'll only be a 19-1 instead of 20-0!!). Still he's a good guy, just a fine example of how if you're going to name and shame then it'd be a good idea to have a touch of introspection

[Dave]

You are right though, getting 6 turns in is very important, and should be on the list. Don't usually complain about the GF thing though, never seen it as an issue

I didn't mind her being there but being ignored by my opponent and having to call for his attention when I rolled dice just irked me, I like my opponent to pay attention to the game.

Who needs named and shamed.  I'm happy to name the people I've had issue with over the years, only let me look the names up so I spell it right!  And I'd hope that where I've caused a bad game for someone else they'd come tell me, particularly as I typically try and sit down for a beer with them afterwards.

As for rules errors 'in the heat of the moment' vs just plain wrong I've seen a fair few from players who clearly don't know the rules.  I've mixed myself up a couple of times myself so can see why it happens sometimes but with a quick reference to the book it's always been sorted.    I've seen one or two times where people's interpretation has been rather favourable to them so I've requested a quick check where it's not met my understanding and don't think I've had one go against me (but that's probably just my 20:20 hindsight).

As for pure cheating it's ridiculous, why on earth would people do it... Toy soldiers with prizes of nothing but a plastic trophy in most cases doesn't ever seem like it's something worth getting that worked up over.  Even if you throw in a £50 boxset as a prize I'm still not going to care.

[fatolaf]

Still he's a good guy, just a fine example of how if you're going to name and shame then it'd be a good idea to have a touch of introspection

Agreed...

I have played so many games over the last 2 years where I have let so many things slide (in their favour) and simply bitten my tongue, as I really cant be arsed with winning that much that getting into a bad tempered game is the last thing I want..

As this was game 1 and I had spoken to him the night before about my plea for a good fun game despite the score, I was very annoyed about how he appraoched it as soon as we started..

As it was with his tactics and list, it was going to be an uphill struggle for me to get anything out of the game, the least I expected was for some semblance of banter or emotion to make it a laugh despite me simply removing figures. I know many very good players who have destroyed me and yet the game has been great fun (Ches, Ben J for example)
As it was pulling teeth was more fun, not helped by his facebook chums (of which I know some) egging him on to make me 'rage quit' or 'ruin my hobby', of which I was the shown these messages as they came in. I mean seriously WTF was that about??
This combo was awful and I was simply counting down the minutes in my head as I was determined not to concede and reward his behaviour with a 20-0...
A horrible experience and something that several days on is making me angry still.
A hobby I have loved longer than some of these players have been on this earth has been slowly ruined not by 8th Ed rules (even though shadow magic does not help when you are a TK player) but by the increased WAAC attitude showed by some older players but increasingly in the next generation (so to speak), that now makes the prospect of tournie play for me in the future an abhorrant prospect instead of the usual fun lads wknd away with some plastic men and (in my case crap) dice rolling goodness...

You cannot help but wonder whether the advent of rankings and ETC qualification is a factor in this, increasing the competiveness of tournies in general...

[Dave]

Actually thinking about it I did have one player bad mouthing me after a game, but he was on a forum complaining about how he'd only ever lost 2 games with his high elves and both of them were to dwarven gunlines.  Mine was not a gunline in most peoples eyes 3 WMs, 20 xbows and a gyrocopter does not make for a gunline to me but if that was his complaint rather than the way in which I played then I'm not going to hold myself up a responsible for that one.

I took my most WAAC list ever to Winter Incursion, had my best placing ever and had far less fun than my usual tournaments.  Games 5 & 6 weren't that much fun.  Now to give Mo his dues he was so hungover/such lack of sleep I was amazed he was still standing, but lacking in banter would be a fair description I hope he'll accept  Round 6 was the aforementioned 4 turn game.

[Dave]

You cannot help but wonder whether the advent of rankings and ETC qualification is a factor in this, increasing the competiveness of tournies in general...

For 80-90% of tournament gamers I'd say it's made no difference at all.

There are those that will never care and the ETC is just another tournament they will not travel to because it's too far away.  There are those who have the same opinion, they might follow the rankings for a laugh because they can look up their mates on there for some banter.  There are those at the top end like Mr Curry who was all about smashing face in before the rankings existed and they haven't changed a single thing about how he plays the game.

But then there are those people who desperately want to go to the ETC.  I'm not sure if Andy  remembers we played in his first Fantasy tournament back on the scene at the Northern Warlords 2009 Tournament.  He was pushing about a daemon army he'd borrowed to give fantasy a try.  Was a fun game, both of us in relative mid table obscurity.  What's he doing now?  Well smashing up tournaments at the top end (on occassion) but also still playing daft pickup games vs the likes of me the night before a tournament where he still brings a hard army (and so was mine) but we had a right laugh about it and there wasn't any dicking about over rules quibbles (though I did show him a couple of genuinely gimicky tricks I'd picked up at the ETC in previous years in order to break down his defensive wall in front of  his warmachines).

I dunno if his recent results are an effort to prove to the English ETC team that they've missed out in not having him but I'm sure it does no harm.  But is that effecting the scene in a negative way?  Personally I don't think so,  barring the fact his army is pure filth    But then same guy takes a fluffy fun list to tempest, so can't help but feel that's something which has always been around the scene.

But I do agree there are more people taking this seriously than ever before.  Perhaps it's the 'media'. Lots of focus on hard lists, top table action coming out of podcasts and twitter, not so much about someone taking a fun themed list and having 5/6 great games.  So it develops an expectation in players who've not been to tournament but have listened to podcasts around what to expect and what they should do.