Shuffling units after you've already finished moving them

[Meals]

Theres an interesting discussion going on in the ETC fantasy section of Warhammer.org, and it got me thinking. I also had a small thought about it during the Planet OG tournament the other day, while watching my opponent doing it. I'm not sure if some of you guys already adhere to this or not, either.

The rules are pretty clear, in both fantasy and 40k, that units should be moved one at a time, after which they are done for the movement phase. This isn't generally adhered to by the majority of people I've played against, same with the 1" rule as it generally doesn't matter and isn't worth kicking up a fuss about, but it can lead to some situations, especially now we have march-blocking tests and swift reforms etc, where people move unit A, then fail a march-block test (for example) with unit B, and decide that the first move doesn't work anymore and move unit A to another location, usually to angle it better to account for Unit B not ending up where they would have gone if they'd passed the test. At which point things get a bit messy, regarding where the unit originally was , could they actually have moved to the new point/angle etc.

Now I've never been a stickler for this before now, and to be honest, I generally don't care (hell, I acknowledge I do it myself), except for the odd occasion when units end up in locations that they probably shouldn't. Usually when I think about saying something, I stop myself because lets be honest it does sound a bit anal-retentive to call someone on half an inch or something.

That said, having played a bit of Warmachine/Bloodbowl/Uncharted Seas lately, where you move one unit do its action then move onto the next unit, it actually makes you a lot more careful when you move something to avoid screwing yourself over for following moves, and its all an accepted part of the game. You also learn alot more when you screw up a crucial movement and actually get punished hard for it... It's one of the reasons I'm always abit iffy about letting people go back to phases they've forgotten, though I'm usually lenient for the first 1-2 (depends on how I'm feeling, really). If you get screwed by forgetting a crucial magic phase etc (*looks at dwarf players* ), you're much less likely to forget it in future. Thats how I learnt to move my turn counter in Bloodbowl, the hard way 

So if I were to inform my opponent I'm gonna play this way and start calling him up on this stuff, would people get annoyed? Or would it just require a change in thinking regarding your move actions that you'd get used to? Obviously I'd need to clean up my own act a bit, and I'm sure I'll make mistakes too.

So what do you guys think about the whole, move a unit, move another one then shuffle the first issue? It's not like we're lax about other rules, so why do we allow it in the movement phase? Do you already adhere to the rules on this? or are you relatively lax about it?


Just thought I'd provide some discussion for the weekend 


Cheers,
James

[fatolaf]

I think so long as the moves are legal, changing your mind is fine an dtaking back the move so ,ong as the opponent is happy with it.
This is not chess and WFB does not have the one touch rule. The ETC seems to be getting worse and worse as a 'governing body' and to be honest can **** off!

As for the 1 inch rule, I hate it but I try to stick to it as much as possible, but I have never called anyone up on it yet at a tournie because it's such an awful rule..

Shuffling a unit however to gain some ground made me livid in 7th Ed and there were a few players at my old club who were famous for it. But in 8th with pre measuring, it's virtually pointless anyway, but dont try it (looking at you Jack  )

[cunningmatt]

Occassionally I've gone back and made tweaks, usually because I've forgotten something not because a test has been failed or something. But I always ask my opponent's permission first and would always grant my opponent to do the same. I guess it depends on who you're playing and how anal they are!

[Tom Hale]

i just wrote a long reply to this and it disappeared? wtf?

[Meals]

I think so long as the moves are legal, changing your mind is fine an dtaking back the move so ,ong as the opponent is happy with it.
This is not chess and WFB does not have the one touch rule. The ETC seems to be getting worse and worse as a 'governing body' and to be honest can **** off!

But thats the thing; how do you tell if its still legal or not, once you've moved three other units?

Oh, and Ol,  this has nothing to do with the ETC, most of the committee is fine with the 'shuffle', and I can't see them doing anything about it future, so you can keep the vitriol to yourself. Its merely where the discussion started.

The rule is in the actual fantasy rule book, by the way:

"the player picks one of his units and moves it... Once the chosen unit has finished its movement, the player can pick and move another unit..."

If you had always played it that way, it would just be the way its done, wouldn't it? I'm just curious why certain rules people don't like are considered ignorable, while others people just accept as part of the game

[Raffazza]

This is not chess and WFB does not have the one touch rule. The ETC seems to be getting worse and worse as a 'governing body' and to be honest can **** off!

Interestingly I have been following this debate on the ETC - and pretty much everyone who is not English is in favour of allowing "unit shuffling".
not sure how I feel either way really...

[Undead Dan]

Shuffling is fine by me, as is any out of sequence action as long as it won't have any real effect on the game as a whole. If there's a rare case of a failed march block test affecting the placement of a unit that's already moved, then that's a situation where changing the positioning wouldn't be fair game, but 99% of the "shuffling" should be fine.

Of course, try to limit it as much as possible, and avoid entirely if you can, but if someone just wants to tidy it all up there should be no problem. We can institute a house rule of saying "j'adoube" as well if it helps

[Dave]

Agreed, general shuffling is usually ok, but the one that gets me are the skirmisher/flier units that pile forwards 20" and then get 'rearranged at the end of the phase, usually involving them moving an extra 2-3" through the 'shuffle wheel' of course there is no way to tell where they started at that point so it's all complete bollocks and invariably gets them in the perfect position they need to be where often they could never have made it had you measured point to point before picking the unit up the first time.

[Undead Dan]

Yeah I had Keith Wilkinson do that many many times with his Fell Bat units at the last Tempest, but I guess that's why he's the (former) Master

[cunningmatt]

i just wrote a long reply to this and it disappeared? wtf?

Did you shuffle any of the words round after you'd written it?! Hehe, oh I'm wasted here.