Meet Nessa Worldwaker
(http://i.imgur.com/UWvOsOo.jpg) (http://imgur.com/UWvOsOo)
M15 coming next month, booster packs, intro decks, deck builders and fat packs all on preorder now
http://www.oggames.co.uk/magic-the-gathering-2015-core-set/
New nissa.
Potentially worse than the original.
Both still good for EDH.
Love the new Ajani. Perfect in a super friends deck.
http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/ajanithesteadfast.html
Quote from: JJ on June 25, 2014, 03:36:13 pm
New nissa.
Potentially worse than the original.
Both still good for EDH.
Worse? She's amazing, you have not played enough current standard buddy, she's cheaper than Elspeth and I think her ultimate is better
Explain?
Quote from: BusiMagic on June 25, 2014, 07:12:01 pm
Love the new Ajani. Perfect in a super friends deck.
http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/ajanithesteadfast.html
Too right, he's fab
(http://i.imgur.com/NbeiQSb.jpg) (http://imgur.com/NbeiQSb)
Both ajani and Nissa aren't good, nissa's ability permanently makes the land a dude which means that all your doom blades become stone rains, and ajani steadfast's ability would work well in eight weenie but his mana cost doesn't reflect that...
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Her other ability to untapped four forests is also amazing though... If you suspect that you are playing a deck which can easily remove 4 power creatures just use her to accelerate rather than man up your lands.
She is great! I'm glad no one else likes her! :)
I'm actually less enthused about Ajani actually...
Yeah thje Ajani ultimate isn't fantastic but as a combo with an Elspeth could be nice
If that Ajani Emblem comes out and you get tickled by a Master of Cruelties you still go to one life right!?
I would love that to happen!!!
Quote from: Guillaume on June 26, 2014, 10:45:23 am
Both ajani and Nissa aren't good, nissa's ability permanently makes the land a dude which means that all your doom blades become stone rains, and ajani steadfast's ability would work well in eight weenie but his mana cost doesn't reflect that...
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Disagree, Nissa is fab, you use her untap ability if facing removal and then the ultimate wins you the game, please also stop looking at cards individually, think of the decks she could go in and you will see a very popular Planeswalker IMO...
Both your thoughts (and JJ's) and ours are all based on theory as no one has used her yet, or built a deck around her
As for AJANI, I was thinking purely for multilayer , where he will rock
Quote from: roland murat on June 26, 2014, 10:57:24 am
Yeah thje Ajani ultimate isn't fantastic but as a combo with an Elspeth could be nice
How does ajani's ultimate relate to elspeth?
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Nissa is an ok turn 5 play but if your curving out properly you can't take advantage of her abilities when she comes down, which means unlike 80% of other planeswalkers she can be kill straight away without having to worry about lingering effects (soldiers for elspeth, cards in hand for jace etc...) if she cost 4 it's a different story as she would have been essentially free to play
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Yeah but put her in the right deck like :manarg: monsters, the opponent has other things to worry about while you play her for one mana, and then the 4 turn clock is in operation...
In my UG deck, with loads of anti magic, I think she will work wonders
Quote from: Guillaume on June 26, 2014, 11:07:25 am
How does ajani's ultimate relate to elspeth?
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Don't think it's anything to do with the ultimate, I think it's his -2 ability combined with lots of Elspeth soldiers
Oh right yh
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Quote from: Guillaume on June 26, 2014, 11:07:25 am
How does ajani's ultimate relate to elspeth?
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Sorry I worded that badly. I meant as a whole it could combine with lots of soldiers getting bigger. Add in spear of heliod and three 3/3 soldiers a turn sounds nice
It's more than that cos each soldier previously pumped gets pumped again
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So 3 3/3s then 3 3/3s and 3 4/4s etc...
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and thats before wingsteed rider starts going large - happy Mike
Although there's a new jace so well have to wait for his rules and then garruk which I can't understand what colour he's in because Nissa has taken green an Liliana has taken black, and I don't believe they'll have 2 same coloured planeswalkers in the new set without balancing it out somehow
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Each of the cards have their place in a version of the game.
Gui and I look at these from a competitive point of view rather than a multiplayer, edh, or even casual I would wager.
The best planeswalkers have a very similar trait and (surprisingly) it is not their ultimate ability. It is largely based around their +1/+2 or 0 ability and its position to enable protection of the planeswalker so that you may be able to utilize what is effectively free mana every turn for their utilities in later turns. It is about immediate impact and when they can be played.
Lets look at the best – Jace the Mind Sculptor.
+2: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card on the bottom of that player's library.
0: Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
-1: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
-12: Exile all cards from target player's library, then that player shuffles his or her hand into his or her library.
First up he is costed at a CMC of 4. So he is a straight up turn 4 drop. He is blue, so you have likely already got card advantage, and controlled the board state.
His +2 ability allows you to sculpt you opponents draws, removing immediate / future threats to Jace. Better than that, his -1 removes the annoying creature that can kill him. Giving you time to establish position the following turn. His 0 is a free sorcery speed brainstorm. Nobody needs to be told how good that is. Effectively he is a utility power house that can win you the game long before you need consider his ultimate. In fact, his ultimate is a trap, you should be using his other abilities to guarantee your win long before you fire it.
Ok so in that light, look at Nissa, Woldwaker (who oddly bears the name of the set that Jace was printed in).
+1: Target land you control becomes a 4/4 Elemental creature with trample. It's still a land.
+1: Untap up to four target Forests.
-7: Search your library for any number of basic land cards, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. Those lands become 4/4 Elemental creatures with trample. They're still lands.
She costs 5 and is green. You likely are casting her on turn 3 if you ramp well. (T1 forest llanowar elf, T2 forest rampant growth + chump, T3 forest Nissa)
You do not have 4 forests so are not getting maximum utility out of Nissa this turn... However having 3 mana up to drop a protector is a great spot to be in. Plus you have mana dorks to get in the way. If you hit another land the following turn, potentially even better as 4 mana just became 8 on turn 4 which means a fatty. However...
If you have first turn. T1 5 cards left in hand. T2 3 cards left in hand. T3 2 cards left in hand.
You drop a forest and a fatty on turn 4 you have 1 card in hand and are completely out of gas with no real means of recovery.
If you took the second option and turn your land into a creature to help protect Nissa, that Wrath of God effect they cast on turn 4 just became very similar to armegeddon, destroying your lands. Her ultimate doesn't make them elementals with haste. It makes them land creatures that can be board wiped putting you behind. So unless you have a universal gives your creatures haste in play when it goes off, with beast masters ascension or overrun... you just lost the game, not won it.
Nissa has one good ability, and 2 bad ones. Realistically, at optimal ramp her good ability is sub optimal and doesn't even make the casting of her free.
Now to pick on Ajani...
+1 Up to one target creature gets +1/+1, Lifelink, First Strike and Vigilance until end of turn.
-2 Put a +1/+1 counter on all creatures you control, and put one loyalty counter on each other planeswalker you control.
-7 You get an emblem with, if damage would be dealt to you or a planeswalker you control, you may reduce that damage to one.
At a really easy to do 3W for 4 loyalty. Realistically, he is best in token generating decks and with other walkers. Straight up. And other than that he shouldn't be played. A chump blocker is as good as a chump blocker with a +1/+1 counter on it. His +1 is better used on larger guys or late game... that said being able to attack and not tap gives him a defender, and gives you life. It is however situational. If you do not have a creature to target, he isn't helping you. If that creature cannot attack due to size, it is again not helping you.
His ultimate ensures steady progress to ultimate abilities and time to stabilize. It doesn't get you any further and doesn't even guarantee a win.
Now obviously without knowing the other cards in the set, it is hard to see synergy, however I struggle to see how they will see significant competitive play.
That said – I ran the original Nissa in an all elf deck when she was in standard and did the most damage I have ever done in a turn because my opponent didn't top deck a Day of Judgement... so ti definitely could work, I just wouldn't be counting on these two to get you anywhere.
They are EDH and casual playable cards for sure though.
Quote from: Guillaume on June 26, 2014, 02:36:03 pm
Although there's a new jace so well have to wait for his rules and then garruk which I can't understand what colour he's in because Nissa has taken green an Liliana has taken black, and I don't believe they'll have 2 same coloured planeswalkers in the new set without balancing it out somehow
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Im 99% sure that he doesn't have a legal card in m15... He comes as an oversized card in prerelease boxes that you fight your whole deck against. He has 20 loyalty, makes a bunch of wolves etc etc.
I may be wrong but I don't think so...
That sounds correct, disappointing but correct
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Quote from: JJ on June 26, 2014, 02:38:31 pm
Each of the cards have their place in a version of the game.
Gui and I look at these from a competitive point of view rather than a multiplayer, edh, or even casual I would wager.
JJ, I did play this game competitively from day dot, so i look at all facets of the game, Gui has been playing this game for about a year, just to clarify. I enjoy the game much more as a casual multiplayer level, and to clarify, cant stand EDH, I think its awful..
So I have missed a few blocks over the years, and ca'nt remember the name of every card in every net list ever made, but that does not mean my opinion of what makes a good card, is null and void when it comes to tournament level. I choose not to go to them as it brings out the worst in players imo, but i watch every single one, and read up on all the tactics..
Just want to nip this in the bud.....There is no tier system on this forum, all opinions are valid.
IMO she is a great planeswalker and will see action, time will tell
Also comparing her to Jace is null and void because there are other colours, and decks apart from Blue. So the comparison does not work. If I make a :manarg: deck with Nissa in, how good Jace is does not matter, if I play to her strengths, then she could really work well in a deck I make or someone else works..
I hear far too much certain people saying 'no-one ever takes that card' or something along those lines, makes my blood boil when i hear sweeping statements like that. Stale Netlist copycat evenst, made me quit the game before there even was an internet :wink;m::
Not having a go, just wanted to clarify a few things... :thumbsup:
However I do like your break down of the 3 walkers, would be great to have one based on all of them...
Not taken as if you were mate.
I think you can make any card "work". Liek I said, my old nissa deck did, it just wasn't reliable.
Also Jace - even at a UU cost, fits in any colour because he is that good.
Like I said though we do not know the other cards. If there is no board wipe equivalent at a 4 drop level, she starts to see a lot of validity. Supreme verdict cycles from standard soon, and rachet bomb too. Makes it more viable.
Rogue brews are always the most fun. See the netlists and develop something that counters the bulk of the field. Playing teh meta game is the best part :)
Yep My fave decks have always been my own anti meta decks, which usually bring out cries of "I have not seen that card before" or "Why would you use that" before then winning :1st:
Played vs loads of Heroic spam, death star decks at first trip to York club last week, all very Theros Orientated, vs my Ravnica heavy anti Theros deck, was great fun...
Especially when I faced a death star[card] Fleecemane lion[/card] with about 100 enchantments on him as he went Monstrous.
The guy has never even heard of Devour Flesh, let alone knew what it did... :analprobe:
I agree Nissa is just wrath bait. Maybe has a role in a rouge ramp deck in standard but unlikely.
As for Ajani, his +1 ability is an issue but still think we will see him in super friends decks. He is a long, long way from the top competitive planeswalkers but he clearly has a role. If the first ability was a little bit better or perhaps he was slightly cheaper he would be insane.
Quote from: BusiMagic on June 26, 2014, 05:31:16 pm
I agree Nissa is just wrath bait. Maybe has a role in a rouge ramp deck in standard but unlikely.
As for Ajani, his +1 ability is an issue but still think we will see him in super friends decks. He is a long, long way from the top competitive planeswalkers but he clearly has a role. If the first ability was a little bit better or perhaps he was slightly cheaper he would be insane.
When standard rotates we are assuming that there's a wrath greater than anger of the gods... There could be for sure - but there are other viewpoints which aren't modern or legacy. 4 pow is a pain to get rid of. I think Nissa will be strong.
I look at it from a standard point if view...I absolutely don't deny anyone from having another POV
Rouge ramp deck?
I love the the termilology that comes up...
Thankfully I was wrong about no new Garruk... He's a powerhouse, but a 7 mana casting cost will probably limit his competitive play I think.
He's black/green as I think everyone expected!
Holy sh*t!!! Are they actually reprinting Chord of Calling in M15!!? I've been so close to buying those for my Pod deck at £25 each in the last few weeks!!!
Wow...
Green gets even faster in m15... Eek
I take it the Convoke a ability can't be used to reduce the :manax: value, just the 3 :manag: :manag: :manag:
Quote from: fatolaf on June 30, 2014, 09:39:25 am
Green gets even faster in m15... Eek
I take it the Convoke a ability can't be used to reduce the :manax: value, just the 3 :manag: :manag: :manag:
Convoke can't be used to pay for the 3 green mana, but is used to reduce the cost of X.
To be honest I don't think it'll be that good in standard (may be wrong) but it defo let's you fetch combo pieces in a Pod deck (if you need to go and grab something and don't have an active pod or any creatures to pod away!)
It's best use in standard might be to grab a little death- touchy in response to a huge attacker... Getting a sedge scorpion at instant speed to stand Infront of a big dude seems fun!!!
Can you post a link buddy to the spoilers on the official MtG site, the new site is horrible to find anything
As for Convoke, the rule says the tapped creature pays for either 1 colourless or one mana of that creatures colour, so surely if it is an elf, that pays for :manag:?
Edit: Reading the ruling, that is how you do it, colourless helps pay for :manax:, green creatures can pay for the :manag: :manag: :manag: cost
I still use Mythic spoiler for most stuff but try...
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive
All of their articles go straight into the archive it seems - cards are spoilt in here.
Quote from: Steve H on June 30, 2014, 09:56:49 am
I still use Mythic spoiler for most stuff but try...
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive
All of their articles go straight into the archive it seems - cards are spoilt in here.
Yeah I give up on their current site, nothing works, all the old links are dead
Quote from: fatolaf on June 30, 2014, 09:49:21 am
As for Convoke, the rule says the tapped creature pays for either 1 colourless or one mana of that creatures colour, so surely if it is an elf, that pays for :manag:?
Edit: Reading the ruling, that is how you do it, colourless helps pay for :manax:, green creatures can pay for the :manag: :manag: :manag: cost
Ok, that seems right...
No one spotted Perilous Vault?
Reminds me of an artifact we used during 7th Ed, but that also got rid of lands....
Game on for multiplayer with this one
(http://i.imgur.com/OoC5yl6.png) (http://imgur.com/OoC5yl6)
Quote from: fatolaf on June 30, 2014, 10:00:20 am
No one spotted Perilous Vault?
Reminds me of an artifact we used during 7th Ed, but that also got rid of lands....
Game on for multiplayer with this one
Definitely noticed it... Looks great! :D
I had a look on mythic spoiler earlier, there's a lot of new stuff I'm very excited about - nissa and garruk will make a lovely couple I think!
Noticed that perilous vault too, very scary for multiplayer!
For convoke (chord of calling being the only good one ever printed an so glad it's reprinted) a creature being tapped can pay for any part of the cost I Clifton. The coloured mana requirements, also, tapping for it isn't a tap ability, so summoning sickness doesn't apply, so u can play a creature and tap it straight away
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Can't believe they're reprinting phyrexian revoker, urborg and chord, sweet set except for jace being shit... (Unless flashback is a thing in khans) also, hushwing gryff is a bomb in modern as it stops both pod and twin!!! Really glad with the new set, loads d powerful cards :P
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The reprint of revoker has made me pretty sad!
Hushwing gruff will have to die instantly!!! :D
White green aggro seems to e very strong in this set combined with theros, thinking about the elf dude, revoker, raise the alarm, and the convoke spell that returns stuff to the battlefield
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All that matters is my beloved Black Cat from M13 is back :thumbsup:
And those lovely Dual Lands, used them last during them last during the Invasion block days, so good to see them again...
Edit: Love that Revoker, i presume that nerfs Walkers, Pod in modern etc..Chuck a few into my affinity deck SB
It's a reprint and is basically a pitching needle that can name heritage druid
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Fun article on the tokens of M15... Some cool ones!!! http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-2015-tokens-2014-07-02
Love the new look of those tokens, landmine is going to be great fun...
V worried about the Treemen tokens, they look like they could be awesome, combine with some trample and Nylea's bow giving them Deathtouch, they could be a massive problem