Saturday 10th September
3 games of 40K on normal 6 * 4 tables
Prizes for top 3 players
To attract new players, upto 50% of your army can be unpainted
£10 a ticket, 14 places
- please pay by cash at the club or via paypal as a gift to [spoiler]fatolaf@hotmail.co.uk[/spoiler]
"The initial assaults have ended and a pattern of dominance on the planet has emerged. Key objectives have been targeted for the second wave of attacks whilst the invaders dig in and fortify their own base camp and key tactical positions. The concensus is that the hardest days in this war are yet to come "
The Rules:
All games are to be played on 6 by 4 tables and scenery is fixed (by the TO)
1.5 K armies, using current codecs
No Special characters
All Objectives must be placed on ground level
The deployment will be set for each game as described in the mission
All 3 games will use pre-set missions and use the scoring system below
Only 'troop' choices can claim and contest objectives in all 3 missions
Scoring System:
This is how Tournament Points are calculated at the end of each game:
Primary Mission:
-10 Points for a win
- 5 Points for a draw
- 0 Points for a loss
Secondary Missions:
5 Points - If you complete the mission and your opponent does not (0 pts for opponent)
2 Points - If you both complete or both don't complete their mission
All VP's for destroyed units should be recorded as well (in case of ties), so keep shooting as every point could count. Only units that have been wiped out should be counted.
Timetable:
10-10:30 - Registration
10-30 - 12:30 - Game 1
12:30 - 1 - Lunch
1 - 3 - Game 2
3-3:30 - Break
3:30 - 5:30 - Game 3
5:30 - 6 - Results & Awards
The Missions:
Game 1: Secure and Retrieve
" Reports have filtered back that one of your scout units has discovered key intel on the nearest enemy position, however they are currently pinned and under fire, their transport having been destroyed. You must retrieve that intel lest it falls back into enemy hands "
Primary Mission:
Use 'Pitched battle' deployment, player one also has to place one troop choice within the ruins in the centre of the board. This unit represents your scout unit and they or the intel they have must be retrieved.The ruins represent the objective. This unit can not be assaulted turn 1 but may be shot at. They may not have a transport vehicle (this may be deployed normally by itself) or any other means of travelling other than by foot (ie no teleporters, bikes etc).
Player one must keep these scouts alive and the position held by the end of the game, player 2 wins if he wipes out the unit and holds the objective.
Secondary Mission
Anything with the potential to move 12' in one phase (eg tanks, beasts, jump infantry, HQ with jump pack) is worth 3 KP. Not drop pods as they are immobile .
The player with the most of these KP's wins the secondary mission
Game 2: Power Drain
" The intel pointed towards a key source of the enemies power, ancient power cells have been discovered and the enemy is in the process of draining, converting and storing this valuable commodity. If this process can be interrupted and the power either captured or destroyed, you will have gained the upper hand. The enemy however is aware of your plans and has seen fit to make decoys of the cells in a bid to slow down your advance "
Primary Mission:
Dawn of War deployment, the player who goes first places 3 objectives in his deployment zone at least 12 inches from each other and away from the table edge. One of these objectives is the decoy power cell, this must be noted down in secret.
Cells can be destroyed by a unit spending one turn within 3 inches and sabotaging it. This unit may not perform any action once there. If the unit is still there by the beginning of it's next turn, the cell has been destroyed and the unit can move on.
If the unit is assaulted during this process, they may defend themselves as normal but the sabotage attempt will have failed. Similarly if the unit is shot at and they elect to go to ground, they may , but again the sabotage attempt will have failed.
Player 1 wins the mission if the 2 real cells are held by the end of the game
Player 2 wins if the 2 real cells are held or destroyed by the end of the game
Secondary mission:
' Someone told them where we were!'
Find the spy, each player secretly nominates one unit from the other players list. If they destroy that unit they achieve the mission. This unit can not be a vehicle but can obviously be transported in one..
Game 3: Eruption
" The battle for the cells has had consequences beyond any ones perception. The battle that ensued after the initial raid is suddenly interrupted by eruption and devastation. Huge tremors result in magma filled geysers erupting from craters around the battlefield, shooting many feet into the air and inflicting terrible damage to all it contacts. Time to win the conflict fast before Mother Terra takes you both out "
Primary Mission: Kill them all
Table Quarters Deployment
Place an objective in the middle of the board.
At the beginning of every players turn, roll 8d6 and scatter a large blast :)) template from the center of the board (this always scatters). If it hits the edge of the board bounce it back again using the remaining movement.
- Any unit hit by this template will suffer 2D6 S8 AP 1 hits
- Any vehicle hit will suffer an auto S10 AP 1 hit
Cover saves may be taken by infantry if applicable (as they try to dive for safety), however any model caught directly may not (and must always have the most amount of wounds allocated to it)
As time is not on your side, prioritising your targets is key, this is a kill points mission with the following changes.
- HQ units are worth 3 KP each.
- Elites / Heavy Support are worth 2 KP each
- Everything else is worth 1 KP each
Secondary Mission:
The eruptions have thrown up a (previously) deeply rooted Cell of enormous stature and power.
The winner of the mission is the one who has the most troops choices within a 6 inches of the center of the objective
Entrants:
Yellow = Paid
1) Tom W
2) Seb
3) Ed
4) James
5) Monk
6) Ben
7) Chris
8) Ian
9) Toby
10) Rob
Sign me up mate :)
Bonkers. I'm in
Quote from: sainthale1988 on July 27, 2011, 05:04:02 pm
Bonkers. I'm in
Bonkers indeed, always want to try something different for Planet OG events :))
Seb and Tom in
I'm in with a Grin, but a couple of thoughts on the missions:
I should point out that Mission 1 is basically a guaranteed win for player 2 if all he needs to do is contest it... It also needs random game length or its even more imbalanced to the player going second. Oh, and Daemons break the deployment rules
I think there needs to be at least a 12" from the table edge requirement for mission 2 cell placement otherwise everyone will just slap them right on the table edge, and the other guy will have no time to get there. If you do the math, 12" each turn (vehicles can't shoot, Infantry have to run every turn and roll a 6 as well) means 4 turns just to get to the table edge, leaving player 2 with one turn to claim the Cells (they have to do it on turn 4 as, if the game ends on turn 5 they can't be there at the start of their next turn...), and you don't even have the time to shoot anything on the way since vehicles have to be going fast as possible, and infantry are running the whole way
And if you are using a Large blast template for mission 3, does it really need to do 2d6 hits to the unit as well? seems excessive, that it hits one model and everyone dies. I'm not too fussed since all Daemons have invulnerable saves but thats basically a whole Marine squad dead if only one model gets hit.
just my 2c
Sign me up mate. Have plenty of time to get marines painted plus learn the rules!
Sent from my 7 Pro T7576 using Board Express
Quote from: Meals on July 27, 2011, 06:57:23 pm
I should point out that Mission 1 is basically a guaranteed win for player 2 if all he needs to do is contest it... It also needs random game length or its even more imbalanced to the player going second. Oh, and Daemons break the deployment rules
Doc will have to still deploy the scout unit, but your changes are applied as discussed buddy
QuoteAnd if you are using a Large blast template for mission 3, does it really need to do 2d6 hits to the unit as well? seems excessive, that it hits one model and everyone dies. I'm not too fussed since all Daemons have invulnerable saves but thats basically a whole Marine squad dead if only one model gets hit.
its so random, it needs to be heavy when it hits...still get cover saves remember :cool3:
Shout out from Gill of 2 gamers radio fame, who would like to come down to this from oop north...
QuoteI'd be well up for coming down for this Ol, would be nice to see the entire OG lot and see the club . . . but if I come down it'd have to be a few days to make it worth the train fare so does anyone have somewhere I can crash for a few days and maybe play some games too?
Can anyone help Gill out?
Im in and I assume Chris and Ian will be as well!
Quote from: Cheese or Death on July 29, 2011, 12:44:42 pm
Im in and I assume Chris and Ian will be as well!
Let me know Ben if they are, I will put them down for now though anyway...
Quote from: fatolaf on July 29, 2011, 11:16:19 am
Shout out from Gill of 2 gamers radio fame, who would like to come down to this from oop north...
Can anyone help Gill out?
If it was the week before then I'd say yes, but unfortunately can't this weekend.
Would be good to see the york lot down though
I am assembling the H.A.T.E krew. Hopefully in force this time. I have a very silly list planned for you ;)
Also, who are the people I've met and know on here? The user names make things confusing. IDENTIFY YOURSELF TROOPER! ;)
Toby
Following some intense discussion at H.A.T.E. HQ can we have some clarifications on the missions please?
Game 1: Secure and Retrieve
*"Player one"= player who gets the first turn?
*Can you deploy an attached, non-troops model with the scouts? Ie: Independent character, sanguinary priest, ministronom priest etc.
*Must the position be held by the scouting unit or can any scoring unit in player one's army hold it? May the scouting unit leave the ruins?
*Do you need to be within the ruins to claim the objective or within 3" of the ruins?
*Potential pedantry but in theory any unit is "capable of moving 12" or more in one phase." Ie: you get shot in the opponents shooting phase, fail a morale check, fall back 2d6 and roll 12".
Game 2: Power Drain
*Cells are held as objective OR destroyed, either will do? If one is destroyed and the other unclaimed/contested this = a draw yes?
*Secondary objective-EH? Pick something of your opponents (the weakest thing), kill it, win points?
Game 3: Eruption
*"Caught directly"= under the template? Does this mean you'd have to allocate wounds to an indy character/special weapon etc if they were under the template?
Thats all for now. LOVING the wacky chit dude :thumbsup:
Quote from: badusernametag on July 29, 2011, 11:30:45 pm
Game 1: Secure and Retrieve
*"Player one"= player who gets the first turn?
The player who places a unit first as in the rules for pitched battle deployment
Quote*Can you deploy an attached, non-troops model with the scouts? Ie: Independent character, sanguinary priest, ministronom priest etc.
Nope, just a basic troops unit
Quote*Must the position be held by the scouting unit or can any scoring unit in player one's army hold it? May the scouting unit leave the ruins?
They can leave, and the position can be held by any other troops choice
Quote*Do you need to be within the ruins to claim the objective or within 3" of the ruins?
standard objective rules, within 3"
Quote*Potential pedantry but in theory any unit is "capable of moving 12" or more in one phase." Ie: you get shot in the opponents shooting phase, fail a morale check, fall back 2d6 and roll 12".
Naughty Toby :spank:
I think you know what I mean :wink;m::
QuoteGame 2: Power Drain
*Cells are held as objective OR destroyed, either will do? If one is destroyed and the other unclaimed/contested this = a draw yes?
Yep, could happen, hence the secondary mission to find a winner
Quote*Secondary objective-EH? Pick something of your opponents (the weakest thing), kill it, win points?
its a simple secondary mission like in all the games
QuoteGame 3: Eruption
*"Caught directly"= under the template? Does this mean you'd have to allocate wounds to an indy character/special weapon etc if they were under the template?
I thought it was clear but yes, allocate the most wounds to anything under the hole..
Quotehowever any model caught directly may not (and must always have the most amount of wounds allocated to it)
QuoteThats all for now. LOVING the wacky chit dude :thumbsup:
Just trying to make these events a bit different :cool3:
Ol
Quote from: fatolaf on July 30, 2011, 11:23:31 am
Just trying to make these events a bit different :cool3:
Dude there's a reason we keep coming back. I've convinced my mother to alter her 60th biffday plans so I can make this one :wink;m::
Keep it up
Amendment added to the OP:
QuoteTo attract new players, upto 50% of your army can be unpainted
50%! Awesome, that's even less models I have to get done in time!
Quote from: noahtonkin on August 02, 2011, 03:32:20 pm
50%! Awesome, that's even less models I have to get done in time!
Quitter! Only by painting until 4 in the morning the night before the event does a general have a chance of victory!
Oh can you put Monk down please Ol. Cheers.
Actally I need to get some scouts for the list, so wouldn't be surprised if I spend the night before building, let alone painting!
Sent from my 7 Pro T7576 using Board Express
3 places left (and I will play if we have odd numbers or a drop out :cool3:), would be nice to sell this out, I know there are other new 40K players out there, why not give a nice friendly tournie a try, they wont bite...
I hope people are willing to teach me the rules as we play...
My mate Edz might be interested, I'll double check...
Quote from: Angelus Mortifer on August 04, 2011, 01:19:26 pm
My mate Edz might be interested, I'll double check...
That would be great
He's in but seeing as he's only just got back into things his army is barely painted. It's assembled and I explained about WYSIWYG and conversions, but not sure if that's allowed.
He knows the rules reasonably well though (camera memory!), but up to you guys...
Quote from: Angelus Mortifer on August 04, 2011, 02:02:09 pm
He knows the rules reasonably well though (camera memory!), but up to you guys...
Its much more important to encourage more new players (or returning players) to come to the club and our events. So If Ed wants to play, fine by me....
Nice, cheers mate. :)
I shall put Ed down for a place then sir....
Can I get any outstanding ticket payments please, Ben & chums, Toby and Gang..
Ta
Quote from: fatolaf on August 05, 2011, 11:58:14 am
I shall put Ed down for a place then sir....
Can I get any outstanding ticket payments please, Ben & chums, Toby and Gang..
Ta
Thanks for that mate. I'll bring my £10 down this Mon.
Just to confirm as discussed Ol that its looking pretty unlikely I'll make this one.... v. few free saturdays till my wedding and I'm not sure filling another one would be smiled upon at this stage of the game.
Shame buddy, but we shall see you at the next one after the wedding I hope :thumbsup:
yeah, next one, no problemo.
So 2 places left for whomever shouts first..
Also I need payments from
Ben, Ian & Chris
And
Toby & Monk..
Cheers Chaps
Ol
Paid. Sorry for the delay. Work mental, etc etc.
Do you want lists submitted mate?
Quote from: badusernametag on August 20, 2011, 10:07:51 pm
Paid. Sorry for the delay. Work mental, etc etc.
Do you want lists submitted mate?
Got it Toby, ta..
Yep lists by the end of the month please chaps...
Sorry for the delay - payment now sent. Ian and Chris will be sorting theirs out tmw. Will get the list to you by the end of the week!
Ben
Cheers Buddy
I'm really sorry Ol but I may not be able to pay mine until Friday 26th, if that's too late though I might be cheeky and ask Ben if he can pay mine for me for now! :)
Not sure what happened this month but my bank account is a bit dry til payday....
Cheers,
Chris.
Edit: Can I also just clarify regarding the specific mission objectives. If some armies troops can't normally hold objectives (ie full Death Company list) can they still count towards the mission specific objectives (ie mission 1) or do they have to wipe out all the enemies troops as per normal?
Quote from: StraightSilver on August 22, 2011, 04:32:31 pm
I'm really sorry Ol but I may not be able to pay mine until Friday 26th, if that's too late though I might be cheeky and ask Ben if he can pay mine for me for now! :)
Thats fine buddy
QuoteEdit: Can I also just clarify regarding the specific mission objectives. If some armies troops can't normally hold objectives (ie full Death Company list) can they still count towards the mission specific objectives (ie mission 1) or do they have to wipe out all the enemies troops as per normal?
You must have at least one legal troop choice unit in your list that can claim or hold objectives (kind of the point of the missions)
You will all fear my terrible list of destruction! I had planned an all infantry guard list. But I decided it was still too good. So returning to an old favourite. Rightly will you fear the discordant choir of DOOM!
Ol hopefully you should have received my payment today, assuming I have remembered how to use paypal properly, but let me know if there's any problems. :)
And I guess I won't be bringing my new Death Company army then, but that's probably for the best as it was a bit silly. ;)
I must admit I now can't decide what to bring. One of two Guard armies or Marines? Might have to be Guard I reckon.
Hi Ol, gf putting foot down and not up for me spending 4 weekends doing stuff in a row. Think I'm going to have to pull out of this one. Sorry buddy
Right all payments received but we are in need of one more player now to even the numbers up (or else I have a lot of Grey knights to build in a short time.....
bugger, this is in a fortnight. since i'm off to warrington now I probably can't do this. will get killed by my girlfriend if i spend 2 weekends playing with toy soldiers, especially as she's been away for a month.
Are we going to Warrington though?
I cant go buddy, and I dont think Mark can now...
Hi,
I was still waiting for my authorisation e-mail, but I thought I'd try my username and password, and it worked. I must have missed the account authorisation e-mail.
Well it's nice to finally post on the forum (been reading the tournament updates for the last few weeks).
fatolaf: I e-mailed you my list earlier today, let me know if there's any issues (I can always post my list here if there's any problems with the e-mail attachment).
A couple of quick questions regarding the missions:
Q1) Is player two allowed to try and sieze the initiative in any of the missions (it some missions it would seem too harsh to allow the possibility of stealing, say mission 1) ?
Q2) In mission 2 the spy is just stated as being an enemy unit, therefore are vehicles a valid option ?
Q3) Does the scattering template in mission 3 follow the standard rule if the centre of the template is not on the vehicle (ie. the strength of the hit is halved to str 5) ?
Looking forward to meeting you all Saturday after next.
Rathstar
Quote from: rathstar on August 31, 2011, 03:52:41 pm
I was still waiting for my authorisation e-mail, but I thought I'd try my username and password, and it worked. I must have missed the account authorisation e-mail.
Many of them get junked and then missed, but glad you are here finally Rob....
Got your list, looks horrible by the way... :wink;m::
With them missions, its best to forget about normal rules for 40K missions and just follow the instructions for the ones that are in play....
QuoteQ1) Is player two allowed to try and sieze the initiative in any of the missions (it some missions it would seem too harsh to allow the possibility of stealing, say mission 1) ?
No seizing allowed
QuoteQ2) In mission 2 the spy is just stated as being an enemy unit, therefore are vehicles a valid option ?
No needs to be sentient, so could be a unit in a vehicle though of course, I will clarify this point though
QuoteQ3) Does the scattering template in mission 3 follow the standard rule if the centre of the template is not on the vehicle (ie. the strength of the hit is halved to str 5) ?
No the S is what is is, under the template means you have to allocate the most amount of wounds to that model, it is meant to hurt if you get hit....
Ol
probably still cant even if i do go to warrington, this is the 1st weekend girlfriend is back, sorry mate.
No probs Noah, it evens the numbers up, so all good...
Hi Ol,
I just emailed my list to your hotmail account (1498 pts Ultramarines), hope that was the right place to send it, if not let me know I can pm you or put it up here.
Cheers,
Chris.
Hey Ol,
Total real life fail. Will send in list tomorrow. From a boat in Scotland...
Monk should send his via here. Will hassle him. He's had it ready for ages though, so it's just a matter of getting someone to bash the keys for him. Damn simian!
Toby
Just need lists from Tom W and James now please, got everyone elses...
Sorry mate, it shall be sent tonight.
Hi,
Another quick question on the two Kill Point objectives.
Q4) In the kill points for mission 1, it says units that can move 12" in a phase are 3 kill points each, and then goes straight on to say that the winner is one getting the most of "these" kill points, ie. no mention of other units. Do other units give up none or 1 kill point each ?
Q5) Just to clarifiy, as dedicated transports do not occupy a force organisation slot (ie. they are not an elites/troops/fast attack choice) every tournament I've been to has classed them as 1 kill point (in modified kill point missions). Just checking this is the same for mission 3 ?
Answers won't make much difference for my army as I bleed kill points like it's the new fad, 29 kill points in mission 3, and either 30 or 38 kill points in mission 1 (depending on the ruling) - hehe, is there a prize for most kill points givien up...and don't say the wooden spoon :)
Rob
Quote from: rathstar on September 05, 2011, 03:05:13 pm
Q4) In the kill points for mission 1, it says units that can move 12" in a phase are 3 kill points each, and then goes straight on to say that the winner is one getting the most of "these" kill points, ie. no mention of other units. Do other units give up none or 1 kill point each ?
Correct, no mention of other units means that they are not part of the mission, ie no kill points for them
QuoteQ5) Just to clarifiy, as dedicated transports do not occupy a force organisation slot (ie. they are not an elites/troops/fast attack choice) every tournament I've been to has classed them as 1 kill point (in modified kill point missions). Just checking this is the same for mission 3 ?
As they not in the top 2 categories, they are indeed worth just 1KP
Quote- HQ units are worth 3 KP each.
- Elites / Heavy Support are worth 2 KP each
- Everything else is worth 1 KP each
But do remember the secondary missions only score a few TP's, it s the main missions that count and none of them use KP's, so I would not worry about it sir...
All lists now also received, let the blood letting begin (on Saturday that is, no running down the street with chain swords please gents) :cool3:
Anything particularly unpleasant cropped up
Quote from: Angelus Mortifer on September 07, 2011, 06:20:19 pm
Anything particularly unpleasant cropped up
Ian has a monolith........... :endit: :cool3:
One Monolith does not filth, make. Its still surrounded by Warriors that die to a stiff breeze...
Any chance of a draw, so I can start the smack talk I'll never be able to live up to? :thumbsup:
Quote from: Meals on September 08, 2011, 04:43:35 pmAny chance of a draw, so I can start the smack talk I'll never be able to live up to? :thumbsup:
^^
We need a "Like" button :)
(...know how u feel too...)
Quote from: Meals on September 08, 2011, 04:43:35 pm
One Monolith does not filth, make. Its still surrounded by Warriors that die to a stiff breeze...
That was a joke buddy :))
QuoteAny chance of a draw, so I can start the smack talk I'll never be able to live up to? :thumbsup:
Doing it now....
Round 1
Table no:
1) Seb vs Toby
2) Ed vs Ian
3) James vs Tom
4) Monk vs Chris
5) Ben vs Rob
QuoteGame 1: Secure and Retrieve
Primary Mission:
Use 'Pitched battle' deployment, player one also has to place one troop choice within the ruins in the centre of the board. This unit represents your scout unit and they or the intel they have must be retrieved.The ruins represent the objective. This unit can not be assaulted turn 1 but may be shot at. They may not have a transport vehicle (this may be deployed normally by itself) or any other means of travelling other than by foot (ie no teleporters, bikes etc).
Player one must keep these scouts alive and the position held by the end of the game, player 2 wins if he wipes out the unit and holds the objective.
Secondary Mission
Anything with the potential to move 12' in one phase (eg tanks, beasts, jump infantry, HQ with jump pack) is worth 3 KP. Not drop pods as they are immobile .
The player with the most of these KP's wins the secondary mission
Quote from: Meals on September 08, 2011, 04:43:35 pm
One Monolith does not filth, make. Its still surrounded by Warriors that die to a stiff breeze...
Any chance of a draw, so I can start the smack talk I'll never be able to live up to? :thumbsup:
lol, aren't they the toughest basic troop choice after Nurgle marines (if you ignore characters giving units feel no pain) :)
A list of what race people are using would be interesting.
Ben: Here's to a fun match, and you practically start 5-0 up as I'm not going to win the secondary objective :)
Rathstar
Quote from: rathstar on September 09, 2011, 12:09:25 pm
A list of what race people are using would be interesting.
1) Tom W - Marines
2) Seb - Blood Angels
3) Ed - CSM
4) James - DoC
5) Monk - Blood Angels
6) Ben - CSM
7) Chris - Marines
8) Ian - Necron
9) Toby - IG
10) Rob - DE
Quote from: rathstar on September 09, 2011, 12:09:25 pm
lol, aren't they the toughest basic troop choice after Nurgle marines (if you ignore characters giving units feel no pain) :)
Well sure, if you're dumb enough to shoot them... but they fold like a pack of cards in assault.
Marines eh? Smurfs always need to be cleansed from the face of the planet, it shall be my pleasure :cool3:
Quote from: Meals on September 09, 2011, 01:12:19 pm
Well sure, if you're dumb enough to shoot them... but they fold like a pack of cards in assault.
Some armies don't have good assult elements, can't see the guard assaulting and winning :) Units without power weapons will take a while to kill the 'crons (and may not even win if they are outnumbered).
70% MEQ, and to think I saved points on units to fit in a razorwing with it's anti horde missiles :)
I had a test game of mission one against my mate this week, it's was a fun game. My mate was using Guard (not a leafblower, but definietely not a fluff bunny list), and it turned out to be a very bloddy draw, which ended with wyches running round after leman russ's (they were my only anti-tank remaining, and were str5 on the charge).
See you all tomorrow
Rathstar
Quote from: rathstar on September 09, 2011, 02:19:32 pm
Some armies don't have good assult elements, can't see the guard assaulting and winning :)
Dont tell that to Toby, did rather well last time with assault IG
Quote from: fatolaf on September 09, 2011, 04:01:36 pm
Dont tell that to Toby, did rather well last time with assault IG
I didn't do 'that' well :wink;m::
Don't think there's much chance the Thranian Peacekeeping Legion will be assaulting much tomorrow, NO WAY!
All Hail Haxor the Merciful, Liberator of Thran IX, Overfiend of OG!!! WE MUST HAVE BLOOD!!!
Btw have I met/played Seb?? Who is he on here? Faces/names/online names not correlating in my brain...
Quote from: fatolaf on September 09, 2011, 04:01:36 pm
Dont tell that to Toby, did rather well last time with assault IG
To be fair I lost 2 assaults against IG in my last game, an event my mate is having no end of fun reminding me about :)
Rathstar
Quote from: badusernametag on September 09, 2011, 05:04:17 pm
Btw have I met/played Seb?? Who is he on here? Faces/names/online names not correlating in my brain...
Angelus Mortifer mate. I'll be the one demonstrating that my brain is a good day and a half behind my dice :)
But his dice will roll so many 6's, it won't matter!
That was a lot of fun Ol, and very enjoyable for my first trip to 40k Planet OG. Three really good games, with great opponents, amusing dice and skew-whiff happenings... plus beer and more beer. Win-win.
Cheers again.
(p.s. Ignore Lee, Toby... we seem to have developed an ongoing grudge/good-humoured animosity towards eachother in our hobby, which seems to be permeating every system we seem to play... If he brought his Nids... ;) )
Cheers Ol, another absolute blinder, I had a really good day!
3 fantastic games (even if the 3rd one was a bit embarassing!) against 3 great opponents, and some lovely tables too.
And I didn't come last! (sorry Ben ;))
I think I did better last time because I was hungover / bit drunk, whereas Saturday I was wide awake and sober! :)
I can still hear Toby shouting though........
what were the results in the end for this? gutted i couldn't get involved: next time hopefully!
Quote from: sainthale1988 on September 12, 2011, 10:29:28 am
what were the results in the end for this?
:1st: Rob (DE) 35 TP's (3552 VP's)
:2nd: Seb (BA) 35 (3052)
:3rd: Toby (IG) 32 (2380)
4: James (DoC) 30 (3083)
5: Tom (SM) 22 (2382)
6: Ian (Necron) 20 (273)
7: Ed (CSM) 19 (1411)
8: Monk (BA) 19 (1073)
9: Chris (SM) 7 (1075)
10: Ben (CSM) 2 (1518)
Special Well done to James and Ian with their good finishes with somewhat weaker codecs....
Please remember any ideas on missions and ways to improve the existing ones, are more than welcome, next Planet OG will be in October, details coming soon
Quote from: fatolaf on September 12, 2011, 01:11:05 pm
Special Well done to James and Ian with their good finishes with somewhat weaker codecs....
Anything is possible when you can drop 5 wound allocating Bloodcrushers in your opponents face! :thumbsup: after that there's not really much thought to it :P
Oh, what could have been if I hadn't drawn Robs Dark Eldar, basically the worst matchup ever for Daemons (ignoring Grey Knights, because you may as well not bother playing that game...), and then had crap luck for my reserves to boot... :cry:
Anyway thanks Ol, and thanks to my opponents for enjoyable games, particularly Chris and Tom, for not throwing stuff at me as my Bloodcrushers rolled over them without stopping :cool3:
Missionwise:
As I said yesterday, I think you need to keep KPs for one primary, to at least make vehicle spam/MSU a less viable option. Possibly make transports worth 3 KPs each as well. Call the mission "Disruption Strike" or something along the lines of slowing down the opposing army.
The crazy explosion mission didn't turn out so crazy in the end, the average rolls for the eruptions meant they pretty much just passed over everything and hit near the edge of the board. That combined with the secondary forcing everyone to the middle, kind of meant the explosions were just an annoying additional roll every turn. I guess this was partially your plan, to force a big brawl in the middle, but that just helped me out big time, because I didn't have to chase anything around.
I'd suggest that if you really want the eruptions to create mayhem, you either need to go for 4d6 scatter or boost it up to 12d6 and let the eruptions bounce back along their path.
The second mission was way too tough for the attacker, as firstly with Dawn of War, you had way too far to go to even get to the objectives, and secondly, since the defender could just assault you to stop it, it was simply a matter of throwing away a cheap unit each turn to make it impossible. I'm not really sure that just forcing the objectives to be along the middle line would help in anyway, as its still seems pretty tough to destroy an objective if the Defenders not an idiot.
Quote from: Meals on September 12, 2011, 01:48:09 pm
The second mission was way too tough for the attacker, as firstly with Dawn of War, you had way too far to go to even get to the objectives, and secondly, since the defender could just assault you to stop it, it was simply a matter of throwing away a cheap unit each turn to make it impossible. I'm not really sure that just forcing the objectives to be along the middle line would help in anyway, as its still seems pretty tough to destroy an objective if the Defenders not an idiot.
Agreed, but again with a few adjustments, I think we can get this one to work...
Going now to work on a MSU killer mission
I suggest one mission that deters MSU and one that deters infantry spam (if only from a game time perspective). It's never fun to have to cut a game short because of time running out. My grats to Toby though for getting through his games (that I'm aware of, anyway...)
Quote from: Meals on September 12, 2011, 02:06:59 pm
I suggest one mission that deters MSU and one that deters infantry spam
I have come up with both, the 2nd one is insane, and put it this way, this time something is going to get hit... :cool3:.
s
Quote from: Meals on September 12, 2011, 01:48:09 pm
Oh, what could have been if I hadn't drawn Robs Dark Eldar, basically the worst matchup ever for Daemons (ignoring Grey Knights, because you may as well not bother playing that game...), and then had crap luck for my reserves to boot... :cry:
...
Anyway thanks Ol, and thanks to my opponents for enjoyable games, particularly Chris and Tom, for not throwing stuff at me as my Bloodcrushers rolled over them without stopping :cool3:
Missionwise:
As I said yesterday, I think you need to keep KPs for one primary, to at least make vehicle spam/MSU a less viable option. Possibly make transports worth 3 KPs each as well. Call the mission "Disruption Strike" or something along the lines of slowing down the opposing army.
I have to agree you did have poor reserve rolls for the entire game, while my shooting was only a bit poor for the first turn, not helped by your horrors passing 14 of their 16 saves after being hit by 4 missiles, boy were they a pain during the game :) However there are much worse match ups. 38 of my 44 infantry models were assault troops (that had 18 pistols and 2 flamers between them all as their only shooting), imagine a shooty army that used some vehicles.At least the majority of my army wanted to be in combat.
I still don't get the vehicle hatred. I've never seen a battle report in white dwarf that didn't have a few vehicles each side. After all did you expect 10 point, toughness 3, 6+ armour save, assault troops to walk across the board :)
I look forward to the next set of missions, they added a nice new element to the day. Just be careful what changing the rulebook balance of one (normal) kill point game to 2 objective games will encouage further. With 2 misions giving penalties to vehicle armies it no wonder that two armies didn't have a single vehicle. All infantry armies that sit and shoot each other will be accompanied by deathwing and paladin grey knight armies. Hopefully this won't happen because there was a nice mix of armies at the tournament.
Rathstar
Quote from: rathstar on September 13, 2011, 10:16:56 pm
I still don't get the vehicle hatred
Dude you can't deny that you're army is a maths hammer tournament army? You're a good guy and fun to play but these arguments are weak in the face of what you brought to a 'fluff friendly' event. Tipping the odds in your favour is easy in a completely unbalanced game. If you want to argue for balance and fairness play chess, or risk even. All GW games are rotten to the core, mainly as its a publicly traded company and they need to continue to sell products. The point of comp is to make the thing more even handed and fair, make you think in different, tactical ways or just be plain fun and varied. I'd like to see events like this FORCE me to play a certain army, play style or adopt a silly, slightly homophobic accent. For something called fun. If I want to win I'll go kickboxing, or seal clubbing. Man barbies is just that, well in this (OG) context anyway. In fact there's loads of 'serious' events where sweaty men with little sex life argue over an inch. Just saying. Savvy?
/end rant
Also Ol, have a couple of ideas. Will PM you when I've sensible, non-ranty time.
Toby (Still shouting, through the interwebs, into your bones)
ps. Yeah James it was a slog and effort to get through the games, but if you're gonna play a list like that you have to except the pain. I thought it'd be a laugh. Also, let's not beat on those Orks and Nids now heh? And also, arn't DOC infantry spam by default..?
Quote from: badusernametagIf I want to win I'll go kickboxing, or seal clubbing.
This has to be the quote of the week!
Oh and thanks for ANOTHER excellent day Ol. Do keep it up, becoming a regular treat, not to mention the only time I actually play, HAH!
and Seb, best game of the day. Keep it up. Next time There will be Blood!
T
Quote from: badusernametag on September 14, 2011, 12:40:41 am
Tipping the odds in your favour is easy in a completely unbalanced game.
lol, such as making any anti tank weapons your opponent has brought ineffecient by bringing all infantry.
No one warned me, and there was nothing on the forum to say this was a fluff bunny event. I saw the missions didn't favour tanks or high kill point armies, but took my army anyway. Fully expecting to lose the kill point mission, which I did. And while everyone was pleasent, some nice fluffy armies were around, and it was a nice relaxed tournment, I saw nothing fluffy about the top 4 armies (mine included), they were nothing I wouldn't expect to see at any tournament.
If vehicles are so wrong I'll bring something else next time. It's been a while since I've used whirlwinds & flamers, it'll be nice to use them in an environment where they're more useful.
Ol: I know it takes alot of effort to set-up and run these things, and even more to come up with interesting new scenarios, so a big thanks from me, and keep up the good work.
Rathstar
(...wading in dangerously here :) )
I think gamers need to appreciate what a "fluffy" army is, and it's general definition. Fluff doesn't automatically mean average or all-comers in terms of lists. A fluffy army build mimics the codex background for how that race wages war essentially. Furthermore, most codices have more than one option for building an army that fits the background.
For example, Orks by their fluff have either a green tide of infantry, a force of ramshackle vehicles belching smoke, or a combination of the two as their most obvious list options that fits the fluff. However, facing an entire tables-worth of Ork infantry at 1500-1750pts is, whilst VERY fluffy, exceptionally annoying to most, and difficult to shift under the current rules structure.
Fluff-wise, Blood Angels are predominantly Fast armour and/or a heavy Jump Pack presence. Nids are mainly a tide of claws with islands of MCs. IG probably have the most "up front" fluff builds because of the book's diversity: mass infantry, mass tanks, multiple flying transports and their combinations. To be fair, Codex Marines are probably my first choice for a fluffy army that is all-comers too: quintessential Codex Astartes combined arms force (like the Ultramarines I faced in round 2 :) - awesome game, and excellent paint job mate ).
Point being, if you're looking to create a "friendly" tournament setting (and everything that possibly entails) you need to think of lists in terms of all comers rather than fluff. That ensures list diversity, the reduction of spam, and probably encourages a lot more to play out of their comfort zone too.
Of my games, I thought Toby's mass IG was actually very fluffy, but like the Ork example it was still a very strong list for how difficult it is to breakdown (without some impressive luck or a tailor-made list of your own) - my most difficult game of the 3, but still fun.
Chris' Ultras were, for me the most fluffy and the most balanced in terms of composition, and as a consequence we had a really enjoyable game....
...then there were the Necrons. A book so out of date, with next to no options or variations, that one can only describe it as fluffy and "balanced". I still felt like I cheated by just turning up to play, as the game ended Turn 3... :( Ian was a great opponent nevertheless, as he obviously knew what to expect bringing what he did, and should be applauded for still giving it a go.
My 2p's worth...
Hi,
An interesting point to distinquish between fluffy and tough army lists. No-one can deny my list didn't follow how the DE fight (as shown in both codexs and GW background), however no-one can deny it is not a strong list.
Other armies suffer the same issue that their "fluffy" army is also a strong build.
If what you (the OG community) want is to tone down the lists to even the playing field, and make games more interesting I suggest you go back to the dirty four that was used in a previous tournament. The dirty four (judged by Ol, or a committee of non-entrants, based on army list strength) would only play each other in the first two rounds. I heard (as I've never been to such a tournament) in other tournaments that have tried this that it encourages people to find the stealth cheese (a strong list to play that doesn't look too strong on paper) to avoid the dirty [whatever] while still having a strong list. However I think it at once shows the intent of what types of armies are expected and doesn't subject the rest of the competitors to these top builds until game 3.
Any other ideas ?
Rathstar
PS. An interesting statistic is that there was a large gap between the top 4 and the rest of the field, and (I believe) all the top four got maximum points (and in most cases tabled their opponent) when then played someone outside the top 4:
I only dropped points against Toby who came 3rd
Toby only dropped poinst against me (1st) and Seb (2nd)
Seb (I believe) only dropped points against Toby (3rd)
James only dropped points against me (1st)
Should we all have been in the dirty four ?
There will be some (hopefully good) more missions that try to change the way people write their lists for the next Planet OG.
But just in case, I will be using Timmy comp as well (ie any lists deemed too harsh will be asked to change)
I dont mind hard lists at these events, just not net lists.. A couple of points to bear in mind of things I want to see at these events (and this will encourage owners of weaker armies to turn up) and to avoid being hit with the Timmy stick...
1) SPAM - simply, dont do it! Unless it's troops (and even then GK termies spam will be frowned on)
2) Suboptimal, try to include something (in the stronger books) that is not the 1+ choice, ie Ogryns from the IG book
3) WAAC, do not approach the list writing with this approach, think about what is fun for both you and your opponent and think about the missions without trying to break them through some uber combo in your codex...
I have 2 of the 3 missions written for Planet OG, pack up soon, (date is going to be Sat 15th October)
Ol
@ Rob - I would like to try avoid the dirty 4 practise (so to speak) and simply encourage self comping.
The DE book in your case has loads of options that don't involve multiple poison spitting transports, it's probably one of the most diverse books they have written in terms of choice
Just as an aside, I tailored my list to try and at least compete against the "Craig List", i.e. Large numbers of infantry, often in blocks above 10 models. Ironically, he couldn't play with his Orks, but Toby's IG was a pretty good equivalent, and I barely scraped that draw - only some remarkable fortune and better decision making would have given me "the chance" of a win personally speaking).
It's always going to be subjective (and therefore difficult to nail down), but at 1500pts, a lot of books/builds don't have enough boots and/or guns to deal with codices that can provide very cheap infantry en masse - whereby you can spend half your points on so many models, and still have plenty left over for the hard stuff. Marines of whatever flavour start at expensive from the first choice you make, mitigated by their durability... but that's often offset by weight of dice against you.
I'm not "crying" about anything ;) , just thinking out loud I guess. With fluff vs balance (and the intangible nature of that), maybe the only way to get as close to an even keel across the board is some sort of choice restriction in the end, but getting that to fit with every book is a mission all on it's own.
I think I was quite fortunate on the day in the end, even with my list, although I agree that the list helped me get out of, or alleviate, some situations. Drawing against Toby when a loss was probably likely; facing Necrons with my mobility in the last game (no offence Ian). The game with Chris was touch and go/touching cloth until about turn 3 when I finally got the upper hand.
The other problem is, if you run the tourney higher than 1500, some books just scale up far quicker/better than others - making the need for a balancing factor more important.
Knowledge of the game and books is also necessary if you're going to do a "higher power" pre-tourney assessment of lists, in order to understand just what a list truly does and what it's designed for. It's usually good to get several opinions to get to a point where there is a reasonable interpretation of capabilities... but again that's based on a fair proportion of subjectivity.
I dunno, my mind can't handle too much thinking sometimes :)
Quote from: Angelus Mortifer on September 14, 2011, 03:22:33 pm
maybe the only way to get as close to an even keel across the board is some sort of choice restriction in the end, but getting that to fit with every book is a mission all on it's own.
Well simple comp like we have in our current campaign might appear.
ie: For every unit in a transport, you must have one on foot
QuoteKnowledge of the game and books is also necessary if you're going to do a "higher power" pre-tourney assessment of lists, in order to understand just what a list truly does and what it's designed for. It's usually good to get several opinions to get to a point where there is a reasonable interpretation of capabilities...
I have my panel of Cheese factor judges.... :cool3:
Quote from: fatolaf on September 14, 2011, 01:12:50 pm
@ Rob - The DE book in your case has loads of options that don't involve multiple poison spitting transports
So three poison transports (less than half my transports) was too much. Ok, message received :wink;m::
Taking on board the comments I was thinking of the following list:
Haemonoculus
Incubi in Raider
2 x Wyches in Raiders
Wracks in Raider
Wracks on foot
Beastmaster unit
Reavers
Razorwing
Ravager
Talos
Unfortunately I don't have any grotesques or hellions. No Venoms, all different units outside troops (which have 2 sets of 2 troops). 4 units in transports, 4 non-vehicle units outside Any better ?
Do I still get hit with the Timmy stick ? I couldn't beat infantry spam before, this new list will find it even harder. Knock down a few transports and watch toughness 3, 6+ armour save troops vainly walk accross the table :(
I may have to try Tau or Marines.
Rathstar
I'm asking this because I'm so rusty with the WFB rules having not played the game in years but, would I be right in thinking that creating some form of comp for that is far "easier" than trying to do the equivalent for 40k? If so, is that because the system and mechanics allow for better policing of stuff, i.e. No "X" magical item allowed, only a certain level of wizard etc?
For 40k, no Named Characters is an easy and obvious one. Beyond that, the variance of builds across the codices with types of builds, even types of individual unit, appear to be infinitely more uneven in some cases. Have you thought of actually doing an OG 40k comp like you've done for Fantasy?
This is the Comp that Pete and I played with Mon night (practice for me really):
http://www.daboyzgt.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=ZECL9MNqa38%3d&tabid=77&mid=454
It's not meant to be a blanket system that makes everyone even, but the intent is to avoid net lists, heavy spam in certain areas and so on. It's not fool-proof but comp never is with the best will in the world.
It's designed for 1850 limits (the standard in the US), so whether it scales down well at lower points is also debatable. It might be a good starting point if you decide to implement something more tangible for the future.
N.B. The top part of the table works like this btw (as it can be confusing).
Everyone should aim to start their list from column 1, i.e. Your first choices should be 1 HQ, 3 TR, and one each from EL, FA, HV. However, if you add something from column 2 (like a second Heavy) before "maxing out" on the column 1 options, you take a 5pt hit for that choice on your comp score.
So, if I take 1 HQ, 1 each for FA, EL and HV but only 2 out of 3 TR requirements, my comp goes down if I take a further HQ, EL, FA, or HV before filling that third TR slot.
Your score starts at 80 and goes down depending on what you take, to a minimum of 30. Any score below that and you can't play. Final scores also make it simple to sort out first rounds, so two players with 30 scores (the toughest lists obviously) will end up facing against eachother at the start.
Just throwing it out there :)
I still think my comp for the campaign solved a few of the issues Seb, although it was generic restrictions rather than looking at certain armies. There was significant timmy involved too...
Did you have any thoughts on it?
Angelus: I think that system is good, but I think it does need the extra subjective points awarded by judges, as it's probably easy for some armies to break the system and the subjective points balance that. I also noted that the system marks units not force organistion chart choices, so you'll have to increase the penalty list to cater for more than 6 troop units.
By the way my proposed list changes moved my score from -65 to +55. My new penalties were -5 for a 3rd heavy support choice, and -20 for 4 dedicated transports. My thoughts on which armies wold break the initial system scoring would be elite armies that don't need so many units, particularly vanilla marines who can combat squad, however the judged 30 points will cater for that.
Rathstar
Wow, you go actually work for a day and you miss all the fun.
Firstly, I have to say I don't think Robs Dark Eldar were that hard. Certainly no harder than 2 50 man rerolling stubborn guard blocks filled with Power Weapons/Fists. Its just that both are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, and its very hard to account for both with one army. I myself took the punt that I wouldn't face too many vehicles and got it wrong. thats my fault and noone elses
Secondly, I liked that there was such massive diversity of lists. If we go out of the way to get rid of one or the other type of lists, I think that's a pretty disappointing way to go. Everyone has options to deal with Mass vehicle and everyone has options to deal with infantry heavy list, and MC heavy lists etc god I hate the word spam). The challenge of trying to fit counters to it all in one list is what I love about 40k, and if you get rid of it, well that just sucks! God forbid people having to make tough decisions about what to include in their lists...
Also for what its worth, as far as I can tell, vehicle heavy lists have won all 3 40k tournies so far, yet no-one has bothered to increase the amount of anti-tank in their lists.... Metagame fail?
Thirdly, what are we trying to achieve in these tournies? If the idea is that everyone brings a little bit of everything, then tell the players that... Or is the idea that players bring lists they enjoy and we get the whole spectrum of list varieties?
You can do whatever you want with comp but honestly the best way to 'comp' things is to make the missions themselves deter people from bringing certain styles of lists.
If you don't want vehicle spam, make a mission that hits vehicle spam hard (KPs would be my bet for this) You can do the same for infantry spam with spread objectives (so you can pick off units as they have to spread out, and making only one objective per unit). This means that if I as player know that its gonna be really hard to win 1 mission with alot of vehicles, and the best I can do, unless I play very well or get lucky, is win 2/3 games and get relatively mid-table mediocrity ( and we all want to win to a certain extent) then I'm less likely to take alot of vehicles. If I still want to take vehicle spam knowing all this, then thats my choice as a player and I can't blame anyone else for that.
The same can be done for other types of 'bad' lists if you really must.
Anyway, as I'm gonna be selling my Daemons in November, I'm unlikely to play in anymore 40k tournies, so take my thoughts as you will.
Cheers,
James
Just so you know, I'm not advocating any changes to what the club does already, and I thought the tourney was good with the need, maybe, for some mission tweaks. Just throwing out discussion ideas, that's all.
Thought the league comp was generally good Steve, but it "felt" like it leant more towards some of the 5th Ed books in terms of penalties, FNP being an obvious one. That's not a biased comment, but I'll notice something like that more for obvious reasons.
Conversely, the reduction of mech and all the other penalties didn't extend to maaaaaaassssss infantry, and at 1000pts on a 4x4 board that's not always a fun prospect to face ;)
Quote from: rathstar on September 14, 2011, 06:00:17 pm
Do I still get hit with the Timmy stick ? I couldn't beat infantry spam before, this new list will find it even harder.
Looks good buddy, wait till you see the new missions first, going for anti spam...
Quote from: Meals on September 14, 2011, 09:24:48 pm
If you don't want vehicle spam, make a mission that hits vehicle spam hard (KPs would be my bet for this) You can do the same for infantry spam with spread objectives (so you can pick off units as they have to spread out, and making only one objective per unit). This means that if I as player know that its gonna be really hard to win 1 mission with alot of vehicles, and the best I can do, unless I play very well or get lucky, is win 2/3 games and get relatively mid-table mediocrity ( and we all want to win to a certain extent) then I'm less likely to take alot of vehicles. If I still want to take vehicle spam knowing all this, then thats my choice as a player and I can't blame anyone else for that.
Some good points Jimbob and something we have discussed, my aims for the Planet OG events have been to have something a bit different from the norm, a good spread of races, and for everyone to have fun.
So far I think we have done that.
Planet OG 3 will hopefully carry on with that tradition, 2 sleepless nights have made me create some wacky missions, some probably too wacky.....................Or are they... :cool3:
The hard part will be getting the missions to cater for marine combat squadding and guard combining units.
Looking forward to reading the new missions.
Rathstar
Quote from: rathstar on September 15, 2011, 01:44:51 pm
The hard part will be getting the missions to cater for marine combat squadding and guard combining units.
Not really had an issue with combat squads, however I will be having words with Toby about 50 man units if he brings them again, but he has promised me his CSM will be coming to the next one...
Hang on, so I bring a completely balanced IG list with no replication whatsoever, even within troops (and no manticore, vendetta etc) and that gets raised eyebrows and now my all infantry list featuring Ogryns, Rough riders+snipers gets panned?! Would someone like to make me an IG list that isn't considered filth? Or isn't there one? Perhaps the Liberators of Thran really just put the fear into everyone ;)
Problem I have is that I really do play for fun and like to play varied lists and different opponents. It also means I don't have all that much energy for discussing comp tbh. I think its totally possible for any reasonable player to conceive a fun list by just stopping worrying about winning. Also, there's something satisfying about taking the none 1+ choice and making it work.
I'd like to see weird missions that arnt announced in advance, so that you can't plan your army around them.
And yeah, I'm bringing CSM next time, and a noise marine boom box, and a karaoke machine and maybe a one man band. Ooo OOO and I may also speak in tongues! Just so everyone really gets into my army :)
I don't particularly think your list was tooled up either, Toby. I just thought was just interesting that you start throwing stones in the 'comp' glasshouse, when you're running some pretty effective 'spam' of your own :wink;m::. And don't say you didn't realise how good Guard blobs are... two of them are so damn hard to deal with, that the rest of the list becomes a bit moot.
I mean, if you're truly honest, did the Rough Riders/Ogryns/Ratlings really make a massive difference to the results?
Also, its not your fault, its just that the Guard book is so damn underpriced, its very hard to make a bad Guard list. Quantity being a quality of its own and all... I suffered the same issues using Daemons in 7th ed fantasy.
Quote from: badusernametag on September 15, 2011, 02:16:36 pm
I'd like to see weird missions that arnt announced in advance, so that you can't plan your army around them
NOW that is a good idea, I'm struggling with the balance of mission 3 :devilangel: so that will give me time to finish it....Consider that idea stolen..... :))
QuoteOoo OOO and I may also speak in tongues! Just so everyone really gets into my army :)
THIS i want to see......
Dude of course I knew they'd be good! I'd never taken squads that big before and I thought the unstoppable horde would be a laugh. Which it was. Also I wanted to make a point tbh, announcing missions like that in advance provides the opportunity to taylor things to suit. Ol basically BEGGED me to spam troops! Whether this is a good or bad thing is up to him...
As for the other units, aside from the Snipers (who just suck) the others performed admirably. Especially as the hordes drew all the fire ;) the rough riders took out a priority target in each game (SM combat squad, Plague Marines, Ravager) and the Ogryns beat everything possible up. I could have used the Ogryns better but I need to practice with them a bit. I think a good player should be able to make a fun list that ALSO wins. Ol put it well saying that he doesn't mind good lists, just not net lists. Anyone can field Lance/poison spam or a leaf blower. A good player doesn't and still does well.
At the end of the day the reason I've come to all the OG 40k events so far is that I like the OG/Ol attitude and view of toy soldiers in general. I'm happy with any and all comp they through at me. Even if that were playing specific comp aimed only at me that meant I had to play Eldar and spandex!
Bring on the 15th!
Quote from: badusernametag on September 15, 2011, 03:25:34 pm
Ol put it well saying that he doesn't mind good lists, just not net lists.
Exactly, my same attitude in WFB as well
QuoteEven if that were playing specific comp aimed only at me that meant I had to play Eldar and wear spandex!
So tempting.... :cool3:
You bring the Eldar...
How about throwing in a city fight or other non-standard deployment/terrain mission. That would mix it up a little and adding a few buildings for the last game wouldn't be hard.
Though ultimately I think going in blind has got to be the best option if you DON'T want people to taylor the lists to the missions. But that is a different kind of tactics which is fun. Seems to me that you're supposed to build an army to face all comers. Why not having to build an army to face any potential challenge/objective/mission?
Quote from: badusernametag on September 15, 2011, 03:45:57 pm
Why not having to build an army to face any potential challenge/objective/mission?
Agreed, and the new missions will be up by the wknd..... :cool3:
Quote from: fatolaf on September 15, 2011, 03:55:13 pm
Agreed, and the new missions will be up by the wknd..... :cool3:
But if we agree then there won't be any missions cos they will be secret no?
Quote from: Angelus Mortifer on September 14, 2011, 03:22:33 pm
Just as an aside, I tailored my list to try and at least compete against the "Craig List", i.e. Large numbers of infantry, often in blocks above 10 models. Ironically, he couldn't play with his Orks...
Wow, I totally got meta'd against. I'm going to make a 40k tactics blog now called
Craig's Lists? :wink;m::
Quote from: Angelus Mortifer on September 14, 2011, 03:22:33 pm
It's always going to be subjective (and therefore difficult to nail down), but at 1500pts, a lot of books/builds don't have enough boots and/or guns to deal with codices that can provide very cheap infantry en masse - whereby you can spend half your points on so many models, and still have plenty left over for the hard stuff. Marines of whatever flavour start at expensive from the first choice you make, mitigated by their durability... but that's often offset by weight of dice against you.
The other problem is, if you run the tourney higher than 1500, some books just scale up far quicker/better than others - making the need for a balancing factor more important.
The points value of the tournament will always be a major part of the "comp" itself. Having taken the Orks to several 2-day events of the last 2-3 years I've found the 1750 points is generally just too high for our codex, as it doesn't have the toys to scale up well. We max out our troops first generally, as they are our strongest asset, but that is usually less than 1000pts worth, so what to do with the rest? Other codices at that point bracket are much stronger, as they finally get to bring the extra umph they've been missing in lower point games. So lower point games will always favour the likes of Orks (I don't think anyone could argue my Ork tide lists were unfluffy?), as the disparity between the number of the models on the table is greater. with less "toys" to balance things out. After about 1000points the Ork dex becomes massively innefficient, spending points for the sake of spending points (unless you go down the route of lots of nobs in battlewagons - but IMO that's not very Orky, I don't like to have more than one squad of nobs).
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but have enjoyed reading this little discussion. It's a tricky one to get the balance. Everyone wants a chance of mid-table mediocrity!
I too have been finding this all fun to read. :wink;m::
I guess I approach 40K quite differently from a lot of people who play in tournaments, primarily because my first love is painting and collecting, and gaming becomes secondary to this.
Of course that might be my excuse to disguise the fact that I am a somewhat mediocre player! :thumbsup:
Whenever I go to tournaments it's often commented that my armies are very "GW Codex". In other words a selection of pretty much one of everything.
That's because I am an incredibly slow painter, and get bored quite easily. Once I have my minimum troops choices down I then tend to pick a unit of something I like, paint it and move on to something else.
This is the case with both my Ultramarines and Cadian armies. Both are what would be considered fluffy, and do work out to be quite balanced.
The problem with this is they tend to be less competetive, although I do alright with my Ultras, not so well with my Cadians though.
Last year I decided I would like to start taking part in tournaments and so started a new Guard army, trying to build a competetive list that would also be fun to paint.
The problem is it turned out to pretty much be a leafblower list which becomes a bit boring to play, but also gets a few comments.
I supose my point is there are two ways of playing 40K, the casual way and the competetive way and both have their merits.
The difference is the attitude of the people of playing the game. I don't really mind coming last in tournaments, (although I did beat Ben this weekend, which he has taken no amount of stick for - sorry mate!) because for me it's more about meeting new players and looking at other people's armies (so I can shamelessly steal all their ideas!).
So I suppose my point is you can't please everyone because everyone has a slightly different approach, but the point is for everyone to have fun.
What appeals to me about OG is that it doesn't take itself as seriously as other tournaments. That doesn't mean to say it isn't serious, just that it seems more fun.
This is partly down to the wacky missions, but also because it is fairly small and has a great bunch of players.
I had some fantastic games this weekend, in particular my second game even though I knew from playtesting the mission the week before there was slim chance I would win it. Beautifully painted Blood Angels too, and I think our lists were pretty evenly matched to be honest.
So I don't think there is much more that can be done, to be honest I wouldn't really change anything as the last couple have worked for me.
I do agree though that it would be good to arrive not knowing what the missions were in advance, as most of us had already sussed out the way to beat them before we played.
Plus it would indeed stop army tailoring, not that that affects me as I can only bring a limited amount of stuff as I take about 2 years on average to build an army!!
@Craig - I actually think your Ork Horde is incredibly fluffy - fits the background very easily. It's also challenging to face too ;)
I think mission variation, and details found out on the day, can be very good leveller - with the added involvement of non-player comp to avoid too much of a mis-match. This will likely keep hold of the fun side for the event itself, and the fun players have against their opponents.
Quote from: badusernametag on September 15, 2011, 04:13:28 pm
But if we agree then there won't be any missions cos they will be secret no?
2 missions up and 1 top secret...
Quote from: StraightSilver on September 16, 2011, 10:15:39 am
I do agree though that it would be good to arrive not knowing what the missions were in advance, as most of us had already sussed out the way to beat them before we played.
I think if we made all the missions secret that it might backfire and you could end up with some awful lists, 2 open missions and 1 secret will be fun IMO.
With the 2 open missions designed to put off certain types of builds...
Going to put them up now
I know you've just put up the missions - my only 2 cents would be to tidy up what happens at the end of the game if it doesn't reach turn 6 (or 7..). At the moment we've just been adding up what you've got left on the table and taking it from there - however that isn't necessarily the fairest option. Say for example my opponent has three troops choices left on the table with a transport and I have 2 flyers, a tank and a couple of fast units. Technically I have the most amount of points on the table but also I am less likely to win the game because they are not able to take and hold objectives..
Yes, we should be able to finish the game in the alloted time but that can't always happen. I'm not sure what the best solution would be is - do we get an adjudication from the group/TO or settle it in a 10 minute tie breaker etc?
My other point is the use of proxies - it can be quite difficult to play against a proxy army without having to keep asking what a unit is etc.I'm more than happy to play against unpainted figures but stand in's just add another level of something to keep track of!
Ben - If a game runs over, we normally have time to get it finished, if it proves a problem, I will work out the result at the time.
I will be strict on proxies, have we had issues in the past with them?
I think the only issue with proxies, would have been Steven using some of my Daemons in place of Nids when they didn't arrive on time for the first one.
Otherwise, my Daemons are a bit special, but noones ever said anything about them to me, so I assume they're all good.
As for game time, its why I prefer to face mech armies, over infantry hordes, much less chance of missing an important endgame turn. That said, I still don't get how people struggle to finish games in time, 2 hours is more than enough time for 1500 pts...
Your deamons look great and are fine to play against. In our game I probably only asked what unit was which as they deepstriked in, maybe we were delayed, oh, 10 seconds.
It's more for proxies when they could be confusion, yours definitely don't.
Rathstar
PS. I probably won't be able to come as I have a 2 day tournament the weekend after, but if I do I'll bring something other than DE. Maybe I'll bring Tau so Toby and I can have a fight of the 4th edition codexes :)
Rob would be good if you could play, 3 places left...
Quote from: rathstar on September 27, 2011, 12:43:07 pm
Your deamons look great and are fine to play against. In our game I probably only asked what unit was which as they deepstriked in, maybe we were delayed, oh, 10 seconds.
It's more for proxies when they could be confusion, yours definitely don't.
Rathstar
PS. I probably won't be able to come as I have a 2 day tournament the weekend after, but if I do I'll bring something other than DE. Maybe I'll bring Tau so Toby and I can have a fight of the 4th edition codexes :)
Ahhhh, only just saw this. Would've been great to play you like that mate. You know you're a good player, so it's nice to see you getting into the spirit of things...