New OG Comp

[katarr]

I have to say I don't disagree with you Francesco, I think it is a solid base but I do think your concerns are valid - I will leave it in Toms hands to take your considerations into account.

He is a filthy Christian though so who knows how that will pan out.

[Pip]

No offence Frank, but your post seems to me to say

Overall comp is quite heavy, but it's ok if that is the policy we want to have.

and then just to run through each of the top books and say you want the comp reduced. Dwarfs, Skaven and VC aside.

I particularly don't buy into arguments like

it's been so popular that anyone  knows how to take countermeasures

(A) Not everyone who attends a Waargh is a frequent tournament player.
(B) If something is so points-efficient that you'd be a fool not to take it, the fact that (probably more costly) countermeasures exist doesn't make it less bent.

[FrankHunter]

One thing is to comp, another is to make some armies impossible to play because comp is uneven.
As I said at the beginning, hard comp is ok, but of course it's harder to achieve a balance. In this comp, as it is now, we have VC (one of the top 3 armies at the moment) who have almost no comp at all. Then we have Warriors (a mid-high tier) who are basically unable to compete. DE comp can stay as it is, I just don't think peg characters should fall into the "bus" comp. With demons is just a minor twerk. Dwarfs are also virtually uncomped, and they really can't stay like that. Skaven's comp shows how unpopulare they are around here. Comping a-bombs and not shooting/magic means not targeting the most "broken" things in that army.
As I said, if we want to go hard comp, we need to put a lot of thought in balancing stuff.

[Pip]

Tom designed the comp so I'll leave him to defend the details. As I've indicated, though, I see no problems with this comp.

I will add that at every tournament I've been to since getting back into the game, Warriors have been one of the most played armies by a country mile, along with ogres and elves. From that experience, your argument that they are not a top-flight army rings a little hollow. I think it would benefit your case if you could find someone with less of a vested interest to argue it

[roland murat]

Just out of interest Pip - how often do WOC win or do consistently very well at larger events? My results with them are pretty mixed but that could well be because I insist of using stuff like chaos orges and warrior blocks

[Pip]

I couldn't say, I don't attend big tournaments frequently enough. I'm sure Tom or Frank could find some proper stats.

[Steve H]

Just out of interest Pip - how often do WOC win or do consistently very well at larger events? My results with them are pretty mixed but that could well be because I insist of using stuff like chaos orges and warrior blocks

A lot!!!!

They are still the most popular army (although there are a lot of Elves in the meta now...) and the "net list" is still amazingly strong.

[FrankHunter]

That's exactly the point.
WoC are really common at tournaments. This, along with the fact that the so called "netlist" is pretty immediate and straightforward, led to the conclusion that they also win tournaments pretty often.
That's absolutely NOT true. I am an hardcore tournament player, both in Italy and UK, and I can tell you for sure that WoC, on paper, will always fall behind armies like Daemons, Empire or Dark Elves (this is, with even players skill and dice luck).
But people loved, and still love, to whine about WoC and comp them pretty hard. Anyway, Tom's comp goes even over that, and totally kills them...go back play with your Lego, man!

[Pip]

go back play with your Lego, man!

I think this is where the discussion stops for me. When people start implying that one way of playing with toy soldiers is intrinsically better or more mature than another way is where I stop being able to understand what they're saying.

Frank, this comp is for OG tourneys. That's max 12 players, 3 friendly games. This is not a "hardcore" environment, and in fact that's not what Warhammer is designed or tested for. If you want to play in a no-holds-barred, finely balanced environment, google "chess tournament". That's all I have to say.

[Steve H]

Tom's put a lot effort into the comp so big thanks to him for that... No comp is ever perfect but this looks a fine start to me.

Let's play some waaghs, get some feedback in then change where appropriate - as long as everyone acknowledges it's a work in progress and wants to develop it then there is no problem.