New OG Comp

[katarr]

This will be the new OG Comp for any future waarghs that are not before any large event and therefore have no preparation comp to practice with. This has been created by Uden and I like it. Comments welcome:

*Each army may be a maximum of 2400 points (unless otherwise stated).
*Special characters are allowed
*Units can be a maximum of 450pts and this includes all upgrades and magic items.
*Non war machine shooting is limited to 90 shots per army – count the number of shots not the models. For example Multiple Shot (2) would count as 2 shots whilst a model that has a random number of shots (Flamer or Razordon for example) counts as 1. Ranked (non-skirmisher) infantry with missile weapons with a range of 16" or less are excluded from this restriction.

*Maximum of 12 power dice may be used in one magic phase.
*You may only generate 2 additional dice through the death lore attribute
*Any item/abilities that automatically stop a spell from being cast count are a max of 1 per army (Dwarves may have 2)
*Up to 2 Characters per unit (chosen by the controlling player) can get "Look Out, Sir" against the below spells. Normal requirements for "Look Out, Sir!" apply:
*Dwellers Below *The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell *Final Transmutation

Beastmen (2,700)
May take units of up to 550 points instead of 450.

Bretonnians (2,400 points):
* No further restrictions

Chaos Dwarfs (2,400 points):
*Chalice of Blood and Darkness may not be used in between casting and dispelling a single spell.
* May take 2 of the following choices: lv4 on death, hellcannon, k'daai Destroyer

Daemons of Chaos (2,400 points):
*The number of units of Epidimus, Beasts of Nurgle and Plague Drones of Nurgle combined cannot exceed 3.
*Max number of Beasts of Nurgle models allowed in an army is 7.
*Skullcannons of Khorne are 0-1 unit selection per army if there are any "Daemon of Nurgle", "Daemon of Tzeentch" or "Daemon of Slaanesh" models present in the army list.
*You may not take any Skullcannons if Kairos is present in the army

Dark Elves (2,400 points):
*Max number of Doomfire Warlock models allowed in an army is 10.
*The number of units of Doomfire Warlocks and Dark Riders combined cannot exceed 4.
*A max of 3 cavalry characters may be taken with a 1+ armour save. This does include Monstrous Cavalry Models.

Dwarfs (2,400 points):
*May only select 4 warmachines
*If only 2 or fewer warmachines selected points limit increased to 2,600

Empire (2,400 points)
*Steam tanks are a 0-1 unit selection if demigriff knights or more than one cannon are selected
*Cannons are a 0-2 unit selection

High Elves (2,400 points):
*May not take Banner of the World Dragon if either Teclis or Alarielle are taken
*Banner of the world dragon may only be taken on a bsb

Lizardmen (2,400 points):
*An army list may not contain both "Cube of Darkness" and "Dispel Scroll".
*The number of units of Skink Skirmishers, Chameleon Skinks, Terradon Riders and Salamander Hunting Packs combined cannot exceed 9.

Ogre Kingdoms (2,400 points):
*An army list may not contain both "Hellheart" and "Dispel Scroll".
*The number of Mournfang Cavalry models and Ironblasters combined cannot exceed 7
*May not take a Slaughtermaster if 2 Ironblasters are taken.

Orcs & Goblins (2,400 points):
*The number of units of Goblin Rock Lobbers and Doom Diver Catapults combined cannot exceed 3.

Skaven (2,400 points):
*Hell Pit Abominations are 0-1 unit selection per army.
*Warlock Engineers, Skavenslaves, Giant Rats and Rat Swarms are each 0-3 unit selection per army.
*Max unit size excluding characters is 50 models.

Tomb Kings (2,600 points):
*All models with ranged weapons only count as 1 shot regardless if they have ability to shoot more than once with spells.

Vampire Counts (2,400 points):
*Max 3 units with the "Fly" Special Rule. This does not include units with the "Hover" Special rule or Black Coaches.

Warriors of Chaos (2,400 points):
*The number of trolls (including throgg) cannot exceed 8
*If throgg is taken chariots do not count towards minimum core.
*A model with "Talisman of Preservation" or "Armour of Destiny" may not take "Mark of Tzeentch".
*An exalted hero on a Daemonic Mount may not have "Mark of Nurgle".
*A Daemon Prince may take a maximum of two of the following: "Daemonic Flight", "Mark of Nurgle", "Scaled Skin" and "Soul Feeder".
*May take 2 of the following choices (lv4 death/tzeench, hellcannon, 0-2 chariots of any kind). You may take duplicate choices
*Max 3 models with the fly special rule

[underscore]

Only a couple of questions from me, really: Are we also using the Independent WFB FAQ and what's the club policy on the 50% Lords/Heroes 'update' to army selection?

[lagar312]

I'd suggest using the Independent WFB FAQ until we get an update direct from GW.

In terms of using the EoT 50% Lords/Hero's as long as it's agreed with your opponent before hand I see absolutely no issues using that rules set!

In fact Me, Steve H, Sam and Edd ran a 12k a side EoD game yesterday to try out the rules...

The forces of Chaos prevailed over an alliance of Undead and High Elves but it was closer than you might think and amazingly Nagash who had been reduced to a single wound by the Reign's of Chaos very early in the game managed to survive the whole game!!!

I do have to say it was an absolutely fantastic day of Silly Warhammer and I would recommend it to anyone.. infact going forward don't be surprised to see EoD games on most Saturdays were the club is open!

Fingers crossed Edd will post up some of the photo's from yesterday at some point

[Pip]

As I said in the club, I think this comp looks good.

Have been thinking about the (very short) Lizards bit some more, though, and I have the tiniest, nitpickiest point... not really a criticism so much as me thinking out loud. Basically, if you make the Cube an either-or choice with a scroll, then people are going to choose the scroll every time. It's cheaper, it works without needing a dice roll, and it can't end your own spells if you're forced to use it in a pinch.

I don't really have an alternative to propose - if you want to remove double scroll then it definitely needs to be limited, and there's nothing else you're comping in the Lizard magic phase that you could put it into a pool with (maybe Tetto or Becalming?). It just seems like the current rule is a very roundabout way of directly banning the cube.

Is there a really horrible list that the double scroll restriction is targeting? I've got to say, as a Lizard player it doesn't hurt to have a little more magic defense than the other races... considering how many of the popular nuke spells test off initiative... 

[underscore]

In terms of using the EoT 50% Lords/Hero's as long as it's agreed with your opponent before hand I see absolutely no issues using that rules set!

But I'm guessing that the OG Comp will be sticking with the 25% limits? There seems to be a bit of confusion around as to whether the End Times are updating the BRB or are an optional update to them.

(Not that it really matters to either of my armies, mind, it just seems like a point worth clarifying)

[katarr]

Yes generally it will.

[Steve H]

End Times game was fantastic!!! Thanks a bunch to Edd, Sam and G... It was a blast and I can't wait for next time!!!

Nagash surviving the whole game was highly unlikely but the big guy pulled through! (Somehow!!!!)

[Maelstrom]

Well I put the comp together based off not using the end times stuff. As its too early to figure out what will be bent or not with the new restrictions. I recomend if we are using the nagash suppliment to not use the comp and just go fully uncomped

[Angelus Mortifer]

There's an interesting article on BoLS highlighting some of the "fun" you can have with Undead lists now (TK/VC now that they're combined). Makes for insightful reading for some of the combos you can put together. Copied here to save having to give them click bait 

"Nagash had brought Warhammer Fantasy an entirely new army to play.  But how scary is it?

Hey guys, just a quick article here about how I'm going to incorporate some of the new Undead Legions rules to my existing Vampire Counts army.

The Big Changes
Here are some of the big things to take note of:

•There is no more Nehekharan Undead or specific Vampire Counts Undead, there is now only one Undead.  This means that all the magic, magic items and special rules that target a specific undead entity now affects all Undead models in your army.  The same applies for the Lore of Nehekhara and Lore of Vampires.  This is absolutely huge, and something I will expand on in a bit.
•You now have access to all of the units in both army books so you and mix and match like you please, following the normal army restrictions of course.  By normal, I mean now you can play with 50% of your army as Lords.  You want to take a beefy Tomb King along side your pumped up Vampire Lord in 2500 points?  Sure thing.
•Tomb Kings' units can now march within 12" of the army general, just like Vampire Counts.  This is gigantic because the army was never able to march before, and made up their movement with magic spells.  Let this sink in for a bit, because it's going to get wild in a little bit.
•Finally, your general dying no longer makes your entire army crumble.  If you lose your big bad Vampire Lord, nothing bad happens because Nagash's power is able to sustain your army during these dark times.  This can be a huge boon for late game attrition when your general rolls horribly to save.




If you guys haven't figured it out already, this unlocks a huge new can of worms that the Old World is not ready for.  Just when you think it's bad enough that some of their greatest heroes have fallen, the world is in ruins and they're being bombarded by Undead and Chaos at all sides, what more can go wrong?!

Here is Where it Goes Wrong

Tomb Kings can now march with your Vampire Lord right?  Both Lore of Nehekhara and Lore of Vampires can be used on all Undead units right?  Bring on the movement shenanigans!  If anything WHFB has taught me over the years is that these slow-moving, corpse-ridden undead guys sure can move when you want them to.  Between Incantation of Desert Winds and Vanhel's Danse Macabre, you can move your entire army into your opponent's backfield soon after you deploy.  Why?  Because there is no more restriction which Undead units are affected by these spells.  Incantation of Desert Winds is a signature spell that was built into the TK lore to make up for the fact that TK could never march before.  Now that every Liche Priest and their mother can take it, you have a grave decision to make when your opponent wants to cast this spell.  On a 8+ augment Undead (was Nehekaran Undead) units within 12" can immediately make a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase.  You can extend this to a bubble 24" on a 16+, but that might be out of the realm of possibilities for a Lv.1-2 supporting Liche Priest.

Now think about this for a second:  Your entire army just marched, and now it can move again?  What happens when you get off VDM (Vanhel's Danse Macabre) on a bubble 12+?  If that goes off, every Undead unit within 12" can now make another 8" move followed by re-rolls to hit until the next round of magic.  If you think Wood Elves are fast, or Slaaneshi Daemons, think again:  Undead are the new masters of movement and they do so with basic spells, one of which is a signature spell that every Liche Priest can take, and VDM with Book of Arkhan (BS PL3) from a Necromancer.




Sure, sure, but we can dispel that right?  Of course you can, but that's the beauty of it all.  For a spell like Incantation of Desert Winds, it just became questionable to a must dispel lest you want Terrorgheists screaming behind your units.  This level of magical commitment forces your hand and there's a possibility that it won't be enough to stop it all.  The fact that this is available on every wizard in the TK army means that you will always have it in your arsenal.




What happens when you combine an army with re-roll hits via VDM with Incantation of Righteous Smiting?  You have a dramatic increase in damage potential as your army is now capable of re-rolling hits with +1 attack.  Both of those can be stacked and both of those can be cast in a bubble if you so desired.  With Tomb Guard and Grave Guard benefiting huge amounts from these magical effects, it's no wonder that they stayed in different books.  If you think that's rough, think about what happens when you cast Hellish Vigor on a unit in combination with Incantation of Cursed Blades?  Your Skeletons now gain re-roll wounds and the ability to Killing Blow!  Throw this onto your Grave Guard and you now re-roll wounds and KB on a 5+.  If that's not crazy, I don't know what is.




It Only Gets BETTER!
When you throw magical items into the fray, things get even more ridiculous.  Incantation of Vengeance is a hex that not only reduces the movement's by D3, but it treats all terrain as Dangerous Terrain so everyone has to test if they move.  Combine this with Rod of Flaming Death (BS PL3) and the unit will take an immediate S4 hit on every model if it moves.  More interactions can be Death magic's lovely Soul Blight with Incantation of Desiccation that's essentially the same thing, but a possibility of a stronger, more expensive to cast -D3 S/T version.  As we already know, Incantation of Smiting is a great spell because of the +1 attack it gives, but when you combine this with Staff of Damnation (BS PL4) and its ability to give Extra Attack to every Undead unit within 6", things get really ridiculous if these spells start flying out.




Alright, enough about spells, I get it.  What more do the armies have that can help each other?  Well, think about it like this for a sec:  A lot of these items never interacted with each other before and certainly not on a competitive level.  I frown upon the decision to put something like Golden Death Mask of Kharnut (TK magic item) together with a unit with Screaming Banner (VC magic banner).  Your model now causes Terror, all enemy units within 6" of the wearer cannot use their general's Inspiring Presence or their BSB's Hold Your Ground rule.  Screaming Banner requires that enemy units in combat with the thing roll an extra dice for a fear test and discard the lowest result.  Add in the already existing fear-bomb that VC have such as Fear Incarnate (successful fear tests must be re-rolled) and Aura of Dark Majesty (-1 Ld aura), and you have something much greater.  Although seen as a gimmick by some, other armies are not as fortunate because they don't have plentiful ITP units.




Another popular unit being talked about is the Necrotect.  For a very affordable price in your hero slot, you are able to grant any unit Hatred.  Slap this in a unit of Great Guard with Banner of Barrows and you'll be hitting things with re-rolls with +1 to hit.  If that's not enough for you, add in a Tomb Prince or Tomb King special rule My Will Be Done! and give your WS to the entire unit.  WS5 or 6 Grave Guard will hit most things in the game on 2s, wound with 2s.  Slap on some of the magic spells we talked about earlier and things get out of control.  One of the other rules that that Necrotect lends the army is his ability to give Undead Constructs within 12" range of him a lovely 6+ Regen.  This doesn't seem like a lot at first, but then you apply the Mortis Engine's ability to improve Regen saves and your perspective changes a lot.  For your opponent, this changes in a very bad way as most armies already struggle with T8 Necrosphinx, and now they have freakin' 5+ Regen and take 2 less wounds from losing combat if you have a BSB nearby.




Lastly, expect to see a Casket of Souls in every list.  Not only does it work wonderfully with the whole scream-machine that VC tends to throw out every now and then, but it supplies a lovely +D3 PD to the army.  Combined with something like Black Peripat and maybe the Mortis Engine's +2 to cast for Lore of Vampires, you might just dominate the magic phase.

Fear Nagash's Army!
Just how powerful is all this?  Aside from the movement shennigans, I'm pretty sure it's going to be very powerful, but not unbeatable.  I'm not going to get into all the crazy Mortarchs just yet, but this should be enough to get the gears in your head moving."

[FrankHunter]

Just read this, and as an hardcore "comp" player I may as well give my thoughts.

Overall comp is quite heavy, but it's ok if that is the policy we want to have.
Things I think do not fit:

- no skullcannons if Kairos in the army
I think one skullcannon is ok, even with Kairos. Comp on Demons is pretty tough already.

- max 3 1+ armor characters in DE army.
Everyone hates DE bus lists, but it's been so popular that anyone  knows how to take countermeasures. Also, heroes on pegs and dark steed are stuck with S4 if they go for 1+ armor. I think this would be better as "this does NOT include monstrous cavalry models".

- dwarfs may take max 4 wm's.
This is plenty enough to make a gunline. I would add this: "engineers count as war machines if organ guns present in the army".
Also, we totally need comp on gyrocopters/bombers. I would overall change it like that:
"maximum of 9 warmachines in a army. Gyrocopters/bombers count as wm's. Cannons count as 2. Engineers count as 1 if organ guns in the army."

- skaven's max 1 a-bomb.
This is outdated. Nowadays a-bombs are not as powerful as they used to be in the meta.
Also, the 0-3 on chaff is pretty tough for this army. You could instead choice of limiting magic and shooting with something like: "max 3 of the following: Grey Seer, more than 6 gutter runners, warp lightning cannon".

- vampire counts
No comp on screams/ethereals? Seriously???
Something like that maybe: "Choose max 3 of the following: banshee, terrorgheist, red fury. Max 3 of the following: ethereal units, crypt horrors".

- warriors of chaos.
In all honesty, just too much. You comped WoC as they were the most powerful army out there. Trust me, as a WoC player for the last ten years, they are not. They are at best a middle-high tier, and with this comp they fall much lower. You basically took away ALL the good options in the army: troll spam, 3+ wards, demon prince, magic and hellcanon combo. If you are willing to change this I can come up with something more reasonable.

[katarr]

I have to say I don't disagree with you Francesco, I think it is a solid base but I do think your concerns are valid - I will leave it in Toms hands to take your considerations into account.

He is a filthy Christian though so who knows how that will pan out.

[Pip]

No offence Frank, but your post seems to me to say

Overall comp is quite heavy, but it's ok if that is the policy we want to have.

and then just to run through each of the top books and say you want the comp reduced. Dwarfs, Skaven and VC aside.

I particularly don't buy into arguments like

it's been so popular that anyone  knows how to take countermeasures

(A) Not everyone who attends a Waargh is a frequent tournament player.
(B) If something is so points-efficient that you'd be a fool not to take it, the fact that (probably more costly) countermeasures exist doesn't make it less bent.

[FrankHunter]

One thing is to comp, another is to make some armies impossible to play because comp is uneven.
As I said at the beginning, hard comp is ok, but of course it's harder to achieve a balance. In this comp, as it is now, we have VC (one of the top 3 armies at the moment) who have almost no comp at all. Then we have Warriors (a mid-high tier) who are basically unable to compete. DE comp can stay as it is, I just don't think peg characters should fall into the "bus" comp. With demons is just a minor twerk. Dwarfs are also virtually uncomped, and they really can't stay like that. Skaven's comp shows how unpopulare they are around here. Comping a-bombs and not shooting/magic means not targeting the most "broken" things in that army.
As I said, if we want to go hard comp, we need to put a lot of thought in balancing stuff.

[Pip]

Tom designed the comp so I'll leave him to defend the details. As I've indicated, though, I see no problems with this comp.

I will add that at every tournament I've been to since getting back into the game, Warriors have been one of the most played armies by a country mile, along with ogres and elves. From that experience, your argument that they are not a top-flight army rings a little hollow. I think it would benefit your case if you could find someone with less of a vested interest to argue it

[roland murat]

Just out of interest Pip - how often do WOC win or do consistently very well at larger events? My results with them are pretty mixed but that could well be because I insist of using stuff like chaos orges and warrior blocks

[Pip]

I couldn't say, I don't attend big tournaments frequently enough. I'm sure Tom or Frank could find some proper stats.

[Steve H]

Just out of interest Pip - how often do WOC win or do consistently very well at larger events? My results with them are pretty mixed but that could well be because I insist of using stuff like chaos orges and warrior blocks

A lot!!!!

They are still the most popular army (although there are a lot of Elves in the meta now...) and the "net list" is still amazingly strong.

[FrankHunter]

That's exactly the point.
WoC are really common at tournaments. This, along with the fact that the so called "netlist" is pretty immediate and straightforward, led to the conclusion that they also win tournaments pretty often.
That's absolutely NOT true. I am an hardcore tournament player, both in Italy and UK, and I can tell you for sure that WoC, on paper, will always fall behind armies like Daemons, Empire or Dark Elves (this is, with even players skill and dice luck).
But people loved, and still love, to whine about WoC and comp them pretty hard. Anyway, Tom's comp goes even over that, and totally kills them...go back play with your Lego, man!

[Pip]

go back play with your Lego, man!

I think this is where the discussion stops for me. When people start implying that one way of playing with toy soldiers is intrinsically better or more mature than another way is where I stop being able to understand what they're saying.

Frank, this comp is for OG tourneys. That's max 12 players, 3 friendly games. This is not a "hardcore" environment, and in fact that's not what Warhammer is designed or tested for. If you want to play in a no-holds-barred, finely balanced environment, google "chess tournament". That's all I have to say.

[Steve H]

Tom's put a lot effort into the comp so big thanks to him for that... No comp is ever perfect but this looks a fine start to me.

Let's play some waaghs, get some feedback in then change where appropriate - as long as everyone acknowledges it's a work in progress and wants to develop it then there is no problem.

[FrankHunter]

My "lego comment" was clearly a joke, and I am sure Tom is also aware of that.
My whole point has been misunderstood. I don't see what "gaming style" has to do with discussion on comp.
I was simply arguing that THIS comp can be improved. This comes naturally from a fact like that WoC have a huge list of comp, while VC have a couple of words (btw I am sure that Tom was simply being lazy!).
Following your line of thought, then a WoC player will not have any fun at this event, because his army will totally be wrecked by an almost uncomped VC one.
That's why I was saying that "hard comp" is an hard path, and not always the best. Tournament with hard comp are usually the most competitive ones, and it's easy to understand why. If we want to keep things more "friendly" (and once again I want to reiterate that there is absolutely no relationship between competitiveness and friendly....ess. Has happened to me to argue with what seemed at first to be the most relaxed players. It's not about WHAT you play, but HOW) then let's just go with low-to-no comp, so anyone can have fun showing his favorite toy and rolling dice.

[Crompton]

Frank, you see some holes in the comp and they haven't been addressed? Well that is good, prove to everyone what is broken with it by turning up to the next Waaagh and smashing face. A lot about an initial comp is theory hammer until you see how the changes synergise together. I agree that VC look strong and uncomped, screams, ethereal, blender lord, magic up the wazoo is all available. Yet traditionally they haven't done that well, which I guess is why Tom has left them alone a bit.

As for WoC, the only bit of comp that actually bothers me is "May take 2 of the following choices (lv4 death/tzeench, hellcannon, 0-2 chariots of any kind). You may take duplicate choices" first off the 0-2 bugs me as a list without any chariots has 0 of them thus being a choice....in fact you have duplicated it (/pedantic mode)! Secondly, are the special chariots really so ace that they need to be comped in such a way?

[underscore]

I guess it makes as much sense to put this here as anywhere else:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_RULEBOOKv1.9.pdf

Looks like the 50% Lords & Heroes is 'official' now.

[roland murat]

Lore of undeath is also available to everyone apparently too

[Pip]

ARGH WOOD ELVES GOT AN FAQ

WHERE'S THE LIZARDMAN ONE GW

WHERE'S THE LIZARDMAN ONE

[katarr]

Nice business decision for them to make everyone have to buy a load of undead .

Will be interesting to see how things affects things.

[roland murat]

Prehaps this is more something for a different thread but the lore of undeath raising spells just allows monstrous creatures etc from the vamp and TK book? Or does it permit you to raise, say, Skullcrushers if using the warriors book?

[underscore]

http://www.thefieldsofblood.com/2014/08/the-lore-of-undeath.html

Just the Undead Legions: I guess this means that they are also a proper thing for GW.

[Pip]

TBH I don't foresee many people using the LOU with generic wizards. Unless you have Nagash or Arkhan's multipliers, the max range is 12" and the max unit size (barring the 24+ boosted monster summoning spell) is 150pts. It's not terrible but it doesn't compare to Purple Sun etc.

Speaking of which - if the End Times stuff is going into core, I wonder if there'll be some special downside to the Lore of Death in 9th? Nagash messed with the wind of Shyish in the fluff book - to the extent that most of the Amethyst College dropped dead or went nuts, if I recall correctly.

[fatolaf]

Looks like the 50% Lords & Heroes is 'official' now.

[roland murat]

I think I've missed something but how do I find the army specific FAQs?

[underscore]

For some reason they've been moved to the Black Library's site:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

[roland murat]

thanks